Using low AA hops

I was doing a bit of reading and Randy Mosher suggested using lower AA hops in higher quantities rather than using high AA hops like CTZ, specifically for pale ales.

As I am heading to the LHBS this afternoon, I wanted to reach out to the community and see if anyone does this approach and what benefits you get (if any) out of using the low AA hops in higher quatities. I am still messing with my pale ale recipe an found a good malt foundation for it but I am still messing with the hop additions and just wanted some feedback on this.

Admittedly I have always used high AA hops and times to get my IBU up to where I want it, but lately I have been toying with lower AA hops and even longer boil in times to get the IBU where I want it. This adds a complexity to the hop character that would be missed otherwise and allows for a greater variety of combinations, I feel it also allows a high IBU beer to be a lot smoother rather than just clubbing you over the tastebuds.

One possible benefit would probably be an increased oil content. Or at least, I'm assuming 2 ounces of cascade has at least a bit more oil than 1 ounce of centennial.

I read the same thing... and have yet to try it but I think it makes sense for Flavor and Aroma hops..

Yeah I never thought about using the high alpha hops, but this really made me think about it. I could see the smoother more complexities coming through with a lower AA type hop.

I can definitely see the higher oil content being a good benefit.

Yes, but I am talking about using low AA hops for bittering hops as well. I have exclusively used high alpha hops in almost all my beers so this just came across as interesting and something worth trying.

Nightshade, What type of hops have you tried? It seems to me that Cascade is a favorite but I was thinking of trying 3 oz. of Williamette for an American IPA. I have never used Williamette so I am not sure first hand of the characteristics of it other than reading about it online.

Willamette is very similar to Fuggles, so you'll have something closer to an English IPA, except fruitier.

there are downsides to using lower AA hops in higher quantities. there will be a bit more wort retained in the additional vegetable matter. in the BYO magazine from a month ago ("Oh, Say Can You “C”?:  Brewing Hoppy American-Style Ales"), they had a reason why you shouldn't make an all-cascade IPA - something about all that vegetable matter adding undesirable flavors. i have the mag at home, i'll try to remember to look it up when i return on sunday.

I bought 7# of low-AA hops (mostly noble) so I've just started brewing high IBU beers with low AA hops. Overall my 'noble' IPAs have an incredible amount of flavor with smooth bitterness vs my American IPAs which have in-your-face bitterness and little hop flavor.

While I prefer my noble IPAs, that might just be because I like the noble varieties over the American so it's a little hard to say "This way is better".

I suggest trying it out yourself.

Hernando said:

Nightshade, What type of hops have you tried? It seems to me that Cascade is a favorite but I was thinking of trying 3 oz. of Williamette for an American IPA. I have never used Williamette so I am not sure first hand of the characteristics of it other than reading about it online.

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I am actuallly about to start building a new IPA recipe using a combination of grains and low level hops as a first attempt doing this.

This subject came up the other day while chatting with another brewer, ironically neither of us had read this article and after seeing it mentioned I will read it a bit later today.

I found Horizon hops in a catalog - 8.8% AA. They were said to have a noble hop character. I tried it in a Bavarian Hefeweizen. It was good, but seemed to loose something compared to the same recipe with tettnang hops.

sweetcell said:

there are downsides to using lower AA hops in higher quantities. there will be a bit more wort retained in the additional vegetable matter. in the BYO magazine from a month ago ("Oh, Say Can You “C”?:  Brewing Hoppy American-Style Ales"), they had a reason why you shouldn't make an all-cascade IPA - something about all that vegetable matter adding undesirable flavors. i have the mag at home, i'll try to remember to look it up when i return on sunday.

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I would defintely like to hear the downsides to this process.

rhamilton said:

I suggest trying it out yourself.

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Oh I will

Any thoughts on how this hopping process would play out with a black IPA? I wonder if the roasted malts would drown out the subtleties that you would perhaps get fromusing the lower alpha hops.

Hernando said:

I would defintely like to hear the downsides to this process.

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please remind me here on sunday or monday, if i don't post it myself.

if i remember correctly (iffy statement), the idea was that adding 3 oz of cascade, vs. 1 oz of CTZ, means that you have 3 times the amount of vegetable matter in your boil - 3 times more fiber, chlorophyll, resins, etc. some of that stuff is good, some of it is bad and will impart a grassy flavor to your beer.

if anyone else here gets BYO mag and still has the "Oh say can you 'C'" issue, please feel free to confirm or correct me.

That makes logical sense Sweetcell. I usually don't get a crap load of fiborous matter. I use a 1 gallon paint strainer bag for my hopping bag and this makes for a great hops bag as it keeps a lot of the veggie matter out; even with pellets. I will no doubt get some but it is usually very little.

I had a good experience making a very hoppy tasting beer with only 1.5 oz of Saaz. The beer was a very light bodied wheat beer (I chaptalized it with sugar which a) dried the beer and took the emphasis off of the malt and b) made sure the hops were boiled in a lower gravity wort)). I did half an ounce at 60 minutes and continuously added the rest over the last half hour. I also no-chilled to get the maximum out of the hops. The smell is intense, but the flavor is smooth. I would happily scale this process up to a fuller beer. I really do think it added something.

I also did my first ever harvest ale with a pound of fresh cascades. I strained the hops out when pouring to the fermenter and squeezed them to liberate the trapped beer. I don't know if that's kosher, but there sure was a lot of great smelling beer that came out of there.

Hernando said:

I was doing a bit of reading and Randy Mosher suggested using lower AA hops in higher quantities rather than using high AA hops like CTZ, specifically for pale ales.

As I am heading to the LHBS this afternoon, I wanted to reach out to the community and see if anyone does this approach and what benefits you get (if any) out of using the low AA hops in higher quatities. I am still messing with my pale ale recipe an found a good malt foundation for it but I am still messing with the hop additions and just wanted some feedback on this.

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Randy is a good friend, but I have to say that's kinda silly advice. For one thing, there's nothing wrong with using high alpha hops anywhere in the brew. For another, people who use large quantities of low alpha hops have noted a harsh grassiness in their beers from the large amount of "vegetation". Use whatever you need to get the results you want.

Denny said:

Randy is a good friend, but I have to say that's kinda silly advice. For one thing, there's nothing wrong with using high alpha hops anywhere in the brew. For another, people who use large quantities of low alpha hops have noted a harsh grassiness in their beers from the large amount of "vegetation". Use whatever you need to get the results you want.

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I agree with Denny. (Not that Randy is a good friend, as I only met him once- I mean that there is nothing wrong with using higher AA hops! )

And you know, "harshness" is in the eye of the beerholder, after all.

Some people tell me that they can spot chinook in a beer a mile away, and find it harsh.

I can pick out chinook as well, but don't find it harsh in a way that is unpleasant. I like all-chinook beers, including dryhopping.

The same is probably true with higher AAU hops. Maybe someone would find them harsh or "dank" or something, while I find them quite pleasant.

But I would find excessive lower AAU hops to be vegetal or grassy. What is excessive? Well, again, it depends I guess. Nine ounces of tettnanger in a mostly pilsner malt beer (regardless of OG) would probably taste a little vegetal to me, while 1 ounce of warrior (assuming same OG and IBUs) would not. I hope that makes sense!

This definetly makes sense. I usually do use the high alpha hops as well in a the majority of my batches; which is why I wanted to experiment with something a bit different.

I ended up adding an oz of palisade to kick it up just a bit in the bittering so we'll see how the brew turns out

sweetcell said:

in the BYO magazine from a month ago ("Oh, Say Can You “C”?:  Brewing Hoppy American-Style Ales"), they had a reason why you shouldn't make an all-cascade IPA - something about all that vegetable matter adding undesirable flavors. i have the mag at home, i'll try to remember to look it up when i return on sunday.

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quoting from above-mentioned issue:

"Tannins are most notorious of this group (polyphenols) because in large amounts they can cause your beer to become highly astringent. Since they mostly come from the plant material itself and not from the lupulin glands, using high alpha hops in your bitter beers will get you the alpha acids you need and keep those pucker face inducing tannins in check. If you have any ideas about making an all Cascade Imperial IPA, you may want to think twice. It could end up a little rough around the edges - not to mention suffer from severe beer loss!"

(BYO Magazine, July-August, page 35)

sweetcell said:

quoting from above-mentioned issue:

"Tannins are most notorious of this group (polyphenols) because in large amounts they can cause your beer to become highly astringent. Since they mostly come from the plant material itself and not from the lupulin glands, using high alpha hops in your bitter beers will get you the alpha acids you need and keep those pucker face inducing tannins in check. If you have any ideas about making an all Cascade Imperial IPA, you may want to think twice. It could end up a little rough around the edges - not to mention suffer from severe beer loss!"

(BYO Magazine, July-August, page 35)

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Thanks for looking into this for me. I don't think I would ever do a IIPA with low Alpha hops but I did do a black pale ale last night and ended up with a 67 IBU ale. Using 1 oz of palisade and 2 oz of willamette. It definitely was a lot more mellow than the everyday pale ale so we'll see how it ferments out.

Well fermentation completed approx 6 days after I pitched. I let it sit for a bit longer and bottled this beer this morning. The hydro samples tasted really good. I defintely would have to say this is closer to a robust porter than a pale ale. The hops are definitely there but it is amazingly smooth and flavorful.

I am actually thinking of entering this one in my first comp but wouldn't be sure how to classify the style. It is almost dead on for a robust porter but the IBU's are to high (at least on paper); taste wise, I don't think they would know there were 67 IBU's. Granted this is prior to proper carbing and maturation so it's still up in the air. I am pretty happy with this so far though.

I'll post a pic once it's carbed and I pour the first glass. If anyone could shed thoughts though for BJCP classification that would be great. If you need to know more about the beer I can definitely post that too. Cheers!

Hernando said:

Using 1 oz of palisade and 2 oz of willamette. It definitely was a lot more mellow than the everyday pale ale so we'll see how it ferments out.

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Palisades are an interesting hop - you can definitely "over-bitter" with them (on paper) and still end up with something quite smooth and not overly bitter. I did an all palisades IPA once, software clocked it at 86 IBU's, but to me it didn't taste even AS bitter or "in your face" as my 65 IBU C-hops IPA's, it was really quite smooth and enjoyable.

So with me wanting to enter this beer in a competition coming up, Should I enter it as a 23A or should I shoot for 12B? I am not sure if the IBU's on the paper matter over the actual taste? It is defintely close to a robust porter it may not have a lot roastiness but the rich maltiness is defintely there.

Hernando said:

So with me wanting to enter this beer in a competition coming up, Should I enter it as a 23A or should I shoot for 12B? I am not sure if the IBU's on the paper matter over the actual taste? It is defintely close to a robust porter it may a lot roastiness but the rich maltiness is defintely there.

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Enter it as what it tastes like. That's how it will be judged.

Thanks Denny.

Well I entered the beer in the competition and found out the results for The Great American Beer Challenge and my Tenebrous Verboten Ale took 3rd place for Porters. I entered it as a robust porter and one judge did state it was lacking the roastiness they were expecting in a robust porter. But, third place for an experiment and for my first competition, has me excited.

Congrats.

You could complicate it further by FWH'ing with the low AA% hops

unionrdr said:

Well,after brewing my 1st PM cascade pale ale that used cascade hops for bittering,flavor & aroma...one ounce for each,I can say that it does taste quite good. Even though it was onl minus 10 points. It's already looking to me like a low AA& hop,this one being 7.9%AA-was smoother. I think when I use the high AA& percent NZ hop I have frozen for bittering,I'll use only .5oz compared to the lower AA& hop at 7.9%. I'm thinking initially that the lower amount of the higher AA& hop would smooth out as well.

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I agree but I think the profiles for the lower AA hops with the majority being more herbal or floral really lend to the smooth factor. But, I haven't used NZ hops so I really have no comparison in their profile whatsoever, now I have a reason to try those!

ncbrewer said:

Congrats.

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thanks!

helibrewer said:

You could complicate it further by FWH'ing with the low AA% hops

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I actually did do that:cross:

The one thing that is bugging me, is that one judge (BJCP Grand Judge) stated that he detected a slight sour taste but also said it wasn't any sort of contamination and from his notes he really doesn't know where it came from and his only thought on what it could be was that it was mashed for to long. I am not getting the sourness (I also don't have a trained palate) but the mash was 60 mins. Any thoughts on how to adjust or any other troubleshooting tips for this issue?

I FWH'd a 100% pilsner, 1.048 beer with 3 oz of 2.8% Crystal hops (5 gallon batch). Either my FWH turned into a standard 90 minute boil (bitterness, no flavor) or the hop load was too much. In either case I felt the beer needed at least 2 months conditioning.

Hernando said:

Well I entered the beer in the competition and found out the results for The Great American Beer Challenge and my Tenebrous Verboten Ale took 3rd place for Porters. I entered it as a robust porter and one judge did state it was lacking the roastiness they were expecting in a robust porter. But, third place for an experiment and for my first competition, has me excited.

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Congrats on the medal! Did you already get score sheets back for the comp or did you go to the ceremony/meeting on Thursday? I wanted to go on Thursday, but that was the only night I got GABF tickets for.

Thanks. I went to the forum on Thursday since I wasn't able to volunteer for the GABF this year. It was actually a really cool event and getting to hear & meet Mitch Steele from Stone as well as John Bryant form No-Li was a pretty sweet deal. No-Li took 1st for their Crystal Bitter which is a delicious beer ( I recommend picking up a bottle if you can). The samples from Stone and No-LI were fantastic and there were some extraordinary homebrews. I definitely recommend it next year if you can swing it moti_mo.

I will definitely try to go next year. It was in the cards for a bit this year, b/c I thought I was going to Saturday afternoon GABF. But then some plans/ticket availability got switched around and Thursday was my only day to go. I would've really liked to have heard Mitch Steele's talk, and meet him, and I've never even had any No-Li beers.

Next year.

Wel if you want to know what he talked about, is was mostly some stuff that he had in his book he just released: IPA: Brewing Techniques, Recipes and the Evolution of India Pale Ale

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1938469003/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Mostly history of the style but it was still cool.

Mitch will be taking questions on the AHA forum from 10/22-29. http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=13549.0

Denny said:

Mitch will be taking questions on the AHA forum from 10/22-29. http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=13549.0

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Awesome! Thanks for letting us know Denny.:rockin:

Denny said:

Mitch will be taking questions on the AHA forum from 10/22-29. http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=13549.0

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Cool, thanks