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Old 10-08-2012, 02:49 PM   #31
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It is a actually simply because honey is an animal product, and vegans don't eat any animal products. But some vegans will eat honey.
I bet they don't use sponges either.
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:07 PM   #32
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Ehh... I'm not hostile towards vegans in general, I'm hostile towards the ones I've met. I know it sounds bad, but I've not met one kind vegan. Ever.

I had a course in college with a girl who was a vegan. It was a philosophy class. A question could be posed about the morality of the seatbelt law and the girl would answer in the same form every time: "I'm a vegan, and..." And she had the most holier-than-thou attitude about everything. Nasty looks any time you expressed a differing opinion. Ugh.

HOW DOES THAT RELATE?

Anyhow, like others had said before, vegan is the easy part. Raw food diet, uhhh, good luck.
I'd bet real cash dollars that you know numerous kind vegans. The thing is, you just don't know you know them, because you don't know that they're vegans. If your full experience is defined by people who preach their dietary habits every chance they get, you're facing a serious selection bias problem. College kids in particular have a tendency to be holier-than-thou about anything they can get their hands on, and veganism is just one more vocabulary for that.

A bartender I know hates homebrewers because "every single one he has met" (which is to say, the ones he knows about) act like stuck-up jackasses when they come into his bar. The problem is simple: The non-stuck-up-jackasses don't immediately start telling him about how much better homebrew is than the swill he's got on tap.

Homebrewers have a reputation in the public mind not unlike that of vegans, and for exactly the same reasons. Just seems to me we should try to work past that crap.
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:17 PM   #33
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I'd bet real cash dollars that you know numerous kind vegans. The thing is, you just don't know you know them, because you don't know that they're vegans. If your full experience is defined by people who preach their dietary habits every chance they get, you're facing a serious selection bias problem. College kids in particular have a tendency to be holier-than-thou about anything they can get their hands on, and veganism is just one more vocabulary for that.

A bartender I know hates homebrewers because "every single one he has met" (which is to say, the ones he knows about) act like stuck-up jackasses when they come into his bar. The problem is simple: The non-stuck-up-jackasses don't immediately start telling him about how much better homebrew is than the swill he's got on tap.

Homebrewers have a reputation in the public mind not unlike that of vegans, and for exactly the same reasons. Just seems to me we should try to work past that crap.
Like I said, every vegan I have met, is a jerk. I didn't say I disliked vegans in general. If I know them and don't know they are a vegan... well, I don't know them. I might have met them, but if I've never shared a meal with a person, I don't consider that knowing them.

I agree with most of what you've said, but my full experience with vegans IS bad. I'm not selecting anything. No bias whatsoever.
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:23 PM   #34
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Like I said, every vegan I have met, is a jerk. I didn't say I disliked vegans in general. If I know them and don't know they are a vegan... well, I don't know them. I might have met them, but if I've never shared a meal with a person, I don't consider that knowing them.

I agree with most of what you've said, but my full experience with vegans IS bad. I'm not selecting anything. No bias whatsoever.
When I say you've got a selection bias, I'm not accusing you of being a bad or unreasonable person. I'm saying that treating your "full experience" as representative is misleading. Wikipedia: Selection Bias

Like I said, public opinion about homebrewers is generally not that great. My full experience of homebrewers before I started brewing was pretty damn awful. I'm glad I got over it.
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:26 PM   #35
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When I say you've got a selection bias, I'm not accusing you of being a bad or unreasonable person. I'm saying that treating your "full experience" as representative is misleading. Wikipedia: Selection Bias

Like I said, public opinion about homebrewers is generally not that great. My full experience of homebrewers before I started brewing was pretty damn awful. I'm glad I got over it.
I know what selection bias is. But like I said, I still don't use my experience as a basis of judgement for the whole group.

And I honestly don't care if or when I meet a person I like who happens to be a vegan. Dietary habits are weird things, and to each his own. They make no difference when it comes to becoming friends, at least in my book.
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:27 PM   #36
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This has been an educational thread.

I'd like to hear more about the raw/unheated thing. Is that a nutrition thing? (heat destroys vitamins) or a cruelty thing? (burning evil fossil fuels)?

If it's the nutrition thing, I get it for veggies, but not for grain. Raw grain is fairly toxic...it's the malting, mashing, boiling and fermenting that makes it more tolerable to our systems.
It's a nutritional thing. My wife has done raw food before. It has to do with enzymes that are in food that hasn't been heated. And usually, grains aren't really consumed in a raw food diet. If they are it is in a sprouted state.
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I bet they don't use sponges either.
Now you've crossed the line from diet to lifestyle. There are some vegans who won't wear leather on their shoes. But that is a social statement rather than a health statement. As far as sponges, the ones we buy in the store are all synthetic. Vegan friendly. I think you will find that veganism is a lot like a religion, and as such there are a multitude of interpretations regarding what you can and can't do.
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:27 PM   #37
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Edit: BB answered above. Thanks.

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Old 10-08-2012, 03:36 PM   #38
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It's a nutritional thing. My wife has done raw food before. It has to do with enzymes that are in food that hasn't been heated. And usually, grains aren't really consumed in a raw food diet. If they are it is in a sprouted state.

Now you've crossed the line from diet to lifestyle. There are some vegans who won't wear leather on their shoes. But that is a social statement rather than a health statement. As far as sponges, the ones we buy in the store are all synthetic. Vegan friendly. I think you will find that veganism is a lot like a religion, and as such there are a multitude of interpretations regarding what you can and can't do.
Hmm, I fail to see the distinction. Veganism is a lifestyle choice, is it not? The dietary aspect is equally important as the things that are used around the house or worn on the body, aren't they? I wasn't trying to make fun with the sponge statement, rather, make a point. The point being, it seems like a slipperly slope to include everything in the Animal kingdom, because it gets REALLY messy when you have to exclude things like, (maybe a bad example) sponges.
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:40 PM   #39
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There are some vegans who won't wear leather on their shoes.
If they wear leather, they are a vegetarian not a vegan.

vegetarian = diet
vegan = lifestyle

You seem to be aware of that, but it is a pet peeve of mine for some reason
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:46 PM   #40
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I love a good vegan beer.



With my venison steak.

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