That pesky trub...

I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseam on here over the years but please humor those of us who've only been on the forum a short time. One request, I don't care if you call the stuff I'm talking about "trub", you know what I'm talking about so please, please, do not go into an academic dissertation about what the definition of "trub" is?

1. Do you dump all your trub from the boil kettle to the fermenter or remove as much as you can?

2. What is the logic behind why do what you do?

3. If you remove the trub, how exactly do you do it? Whirlpool and use a siphon (I assume those using carboys do this)? Careful pour from BK with trub just left behind (for the most part)? Some sort of filter?

I have always just dumped it all in the fermenter and pitched my yeast (using an Ale Pail). I am thinking it might be contributing to (among other factors) astringency in the beer. I read Palmer and he indicates his belief that the hot break does, in fact, contribute to astringency. I am just wondering what the experiences of others has been.

I've done it both ways many times. Honestly I've never noticed a difference, but I'm no expert.

Generally these days I will chill in the BK and allow the pot to sit a few minutes to allow the trub/irish moss/etc to settle, then I just use my autosiphon to rack the beer from the BK into the fermenter. I seem to leave most of the trub behind this way.

I'm not convinced that there's any real advantage to this, other than my own peace of mind and having less sludge to clean out of the fermenter later.

I've heard some people say fermenting on the trub can lead to off-flavors; others say the trub provides nutrients for the yeast. I'm not sure who's right.

hunter_la5 said:

I've done it both ways many times. Honestly I've never noticed a difference, but I'm no expert.

Generally these days I will chill in the BK and allow the pot to sit a few minutes to allow the trub/irish moss/etc to settle, then I just use my autosiphon to rack the beer from the BK into the fermenter. I seem to leave most of the trub behind this way.

I'm not convinced that there's any real advantage to this, other than my own peace of mind and having less sludge to clean out of the fermenter later.

I've heard some people say fermenting on the trub can lead to off-flavors; others say the trub provides nutrients for the yeast. I'm not sure who's right.

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That is my biggest frustration with brewing. I will hear 180 degree opposite statements made as if they are gospel.

I certainly have something affecting my lighter beers (I know of other problems, too) so I am pretty sure I am going to try getting it out of my next batch and see if I get a better product.

Ridire said:

That is my biggest frustration with brewing. I will hear 180 degree opposite statements made as if they are gospel.

I certainly have something affecting my lighter beers (I know of other problems, too) so I am pretty sure I am going to try getting it out of my next batch and see if I get a better product.

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I generally don't filter on the way to the fermenter, although I keep leaf hops out as they clog up my pump.

I have a CFC, and don't have a way to filter out cold break (as it goes into the fermenter) or hot break (it's very fine and small) and unless I'm using a ton of pellet hops that fill the bottom of my boil kettle, all of my wort goes into the fermenter.

I would be willing to bet that the "something" affecting your lighter beers is water chemistry. Even today (I'm brewing), using 100% RO water, I add to add a bit of acid malt to my batch to avoid a too-high mash pH. The beer has an SRM of 5, and is one of my lighter ones.

If you aren't using acid in your mash with the lighter colored beers, that is probably where that "something" is coming from.

Let's put it this way. If you were running a commercial brewery and worried about quality issues, what is the order in which you'd investigate flavor issues? Trub in my fermenter would probably be lower on the list, regardless of what literature says. I'm not saying that's not your issue, I'm just saying I would look at other parts of your process before looking at trub carryover.

I like Yooper's idea of looking at your mash PH (assuming you all-grain brew). Higher PHs (over 6 or so) can cause you to extract tannins from grain and those definitely contribute astringency. And if you don't, all-grain brew, looking at your wort PH pre-boil is still a good idea. There's a lot of flavor impact from PH.I

To answer your question, I myself do the following:

1. Chill my wort quickly to pitching temp using immersion chiller.
2. Remove chiller
3. Prop my kettle up with an old paint can so that it is tilted at an angle.
4. Put the lid on, and do something else for ~ 30-45 minutes and let the trub settle in the lower corner of the kettle
5. Pump my wort (I have a ball valve on the kettle that connects to my pump) into my fermenters.
6. I still get a little bit of trub at the bottom of my fermenters, but ~ 1 gallon out of 10 gallons stays behind in the kettle.

Hope this helps.

Yooper said:

I generally don't filter on the way to the fermenter, although I keep leaf hops out as they clog up my pump.

I have a CFC, and don't have a way to filter out cold break (as it goes into the fermenter) or hot break (it's very fine and small) and unless I'm using a ton of pellet hops that fill the bottom of my boil kettle, all of my wort goes into the fermenter.

I would be willing to bet that the "something" affecting your lighter beers is water chemistry. Even today (I'm brewing), using 100% RO water, I add to add a bit of acid malt to my batch to avoid a too-high mash pH. The beer has an SRM of 5, and is one of my lighter ones.

If you aren't using acid in your mash with the lighter colored beers, that is probably where that "something" is coming from.

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I am using Brew'n Water and just bought a pH meter, so that I can eliminate that as a possibility. With my last beer, I crushed way too fine (my first beer moving from BIAB to a cooler tun) and I suspect I ended up with more grain husk material in my BK than what I wanted.

Like I said, I only suspect the trub to be a contributing factor, not the only factor.

I did brew a nice BIAB blonde and thought I had really nailed the process. But even that beer had a little overly bitter after-taste which I am now thinking was due to astringency...but that was brewed with straight up tap water with no thought given to water chemistry.

Soviet said:

Let's put it this way. If you were running a commercial brewery and worried about quality issues, what is the order in which you'd investigate flavor issues? Trub in my fermenter would probably be lower on the list, regardless of what literature says. I'm not saying that's not your issue, I'm just saying I would look at other parts of your process before looking at trub carryover. I myself do the following:

1. Chill my wort quickly to pitching temp using immersion chiller.
2. Remove chiller
3. Prop my kettle up with an old paint can so that it is tilted at an angle.
4. Put the lid on, and do something else for ~ 30-45 minutes and let the trub settle in the lower corner of the kettle
5. Pump my wort (I have a ball valve on the kettle that connects to my pump) into my fermenters.
6. I still get a little bit of trub at the bottom of my fermenters, but ~ 1 gallon out of 10 gallons stays behind in the kettle.

Hope this helps.

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Good info. I never thought of letting the BK sit on an angle to make the trub all concentrate in one corner.

Since you have a ph meter, what was your measured PH for this mash? Do you adjust your sparge water with acid also? What is the PH of your tapwater?

I do BIAB, and one thing I do after the boil is line my fermenting bucket with another bag, and pour it right in catching all the hop debris.....

And when I rack, I duct tape my siphon right above the trub.......You gotta love duct tape........

I use a large hop bag for my hops which reduces a lot of the trub. My BK has an angled pickup tube that keeps most of the break material in the kettle. Anything suspended will make it through, but it's never much.

I also tip my BK at an angle and siphon into the fermenting bucket. I try to get all that I can out of the BK to reduce loss and haven't worried to much about the little bit that transfers over.

I have made my own conical fermenter from plastic buckets (HDPE) and after the first 24 hours or so, pulled off a little from the bottom to remove what little has settled. Any yeast that has fallen out at this point is not any I want to harvest anyway. At the end of primary, what I do harvest is much better and easier to wash.

We have an RO tap at the kitchen sink and I try to use that as much as possible but often forget to start pulling water ahead of time and our system doesn't hold enough for a whole batch so I have been topping with well water.

Water chemistry is top of the list now for the next thing to understand and tackle.

Since the two more beer kits I brewed came with a whirlfloc tablet,I noticed using the whole tablet makes a lot of this hard to settle poofy stuff. I've been thinking of using half a tablet for 5 gallons instead to get less of this poofy protein floaters. I'd hate to get that into the bottling bucket.
I use a fine mesh strainer when pouring chilled wort into my fermenters. That gets out the usual grainy,hop pellet left overs. But this fine stuff forms after pouring in the chilled top off water.?...

Ridire said:

1. Do you dump all your trub from the boil kettle to the fermenter or remove as much as you can?

2. What is the logic behind why do what you do?

3. If you remove the trub, how exactly do you do it? Whirlpool and use a siphon (I assume those using carboys do this)? Careful pour from BK with trub just left behind (for the most part)? Some sort of filter?

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1) Yes, I dump all of my trub into the fermenter, basically. I finish the boil (whirlfloc or Supermoss used); chill to pitching; let the BK sit for 20-30 minutes; drain to bucket leaving behind 2 cups of the crudiest of the trub but 85%+ of the trub goes into the bucket anyway.

2) The logic for me is "least waste of wort" (first and foremost) and "removal of crudiest/heaviest crud" (secondary). In the past, after whirlpooling and letting settle, I have tried siphoning off only clear wort and the end resulting beer was no better or worse from my (beer drinking) perspective - but I DID lose about 1.25-1.75 gallons of wort using this method

3) I used to whirlpool/siphon prior to adding the valve to my BK. Now, I have a 270° pickup tube that starts being positioned about 2" above the bottom of the BK. While I'm draining to my bucket, using sanitized spoon, I can slowly push the pickup tube lower-and-lower until I decide to break the siphon. Pellet-heavy beers might lose a quart or little more; all leaf beers or light hop beers I usually leave only 1-2 cups of the "crudiest crud".

That's what I do. HTH!

Edit: I should add that nearly all hops are in a hop sack/strainer bag. The only time I won't put hops in a back is if it's pellets and less than 0.5 oz as FWH or bittering, all other additions go into a hop sack. I can usually leave behind about half of the free floating pellet hops by using the settle-pickup-tube-lowering method mentioned above.

Soviet said:

Since you have a ph meter, what was your measured PH for this mash? Do you adjust your sparge water with acid also? What is the PH of your tapwater?

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I did not have the pH meter for this brew...it is my new toy. I used RO water for this and based my water on Bru'n Water. That is why I suspect my pH was probably in range...but want to test to see on the next one.

Also, the beer that prompted this thread is a bit green yet. I'm going to let it condition a couple more weeks before I pass final judgment on it (put in the fridge after only 2.5 weeks at room temp and left in the fridge for 4-5 days).

unionrdr said:

Since the two more beer kits I brewed came with a whirlfloc tablet,I noticed using the whole tablet makes a lot of this hard to settle poofy stuff. I've been thinking of using half a tablet for 5 gallons instead to get less of this poofy protein floaters. I'd hate to get that into the bottling bucket.
I use a fine mesh strainer when pouring chilled wort into my fermenters. That gets out the usual grainy,hop pellet left overs. But this fine stuff forms after pouring in the chilled top off water.?...

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The manufacturer recommends using only half a tablet per 5 gallons of wort.

Ridire said:

I did not have the pH meter for this brew...it is my new toy. I used RO water for this and based my water on Bru'n Water. That is why I suspect my pH was probably in range...but want to test to see on the next one.

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I use store-bought RO water as well, and it takes me 3-4 tbsp of 10% phosphoric acid to bring 15 gallons of mash water + grain down my into the PH sweetspot of 5.25-5.5 with both light and dark beers.

Also, even if you did hit your target PH by chance on this batch, if you did not acidify your sparge water (I assume you sparge, please correct me if I'm wrong), what you calculated for you mash water is irrelevant. Your sparge water will be at a much higher PH than your mash water without any adjustments, and could leech tannins out of your grain as your rinse.

Just food for thought.

Soviet said:

I use store-bought RO water as well, and it takes me 3-4 tbsp of 10% phosphoric acid to bring 15 gallons of mash water + grain down my into the PH sweetspot of 5.25-5.5 with both light and dark beers.

Also, even if you did hit your target PH by chance on this batch, if you did not acidify your sparge water (I assume you sparge, please correct me if I'm wrong), what you calculated for you mash water is irrelevant. Your sparge water will be at a much higher PH than your mash water without any adjustments, and could leech tannins out of your grain as your rinse.

Just food for thought.

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Good points. Again, though, all water was treated according to Bru'n Water to hit ideal pH. Others have said that Bru'n Water is pretty accurate...and I started with RO water, so there was no variable there. I am not going to blindly accept Bru'n Water's numbers, which is why I got the meter, but I did treat the mash and the sparge water according to Bru'n Water's suggestion for the specific grain bill used.

Ridire said:

Good points. Again, though, all water was treated according to Bru'n Water to hit ideal pH.

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To be blunt—it doesn't matter what an excel spreadsheet tells you, because the math is only intended to get you in the right range from a specific point of reference. The problem is that you don't know what range you got into, or where you started.

Ridire said:

Others have said that Bru'n Water is pretty accurate...

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I wouldn't rule things out because others has had success with a spreadsheet.

Ridire said:

I started with RO water, so there was no variable there.

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That's where you're wrong. RO water comes in various qualities. RO is rarely actually 0 ppm of total dissolved solids.

Ridire said:

I am not going to blindly accept Bru'n Water's numbers, which is why I got the meter,

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Good! So don't repeatedly justify a part of your process is sound when you're flying blind.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time or be a jerk. It took me many failed batches over the course of many years to understand that you can not take ANYTHING for granted. Sure calculators and spreadhseets help and I use them, but if you really want to know what's going on you gotta measure everything and document everything meticulously. And I think you're going to do just that.

Soviet said:

To be blunt—it doesn't matter what an excel spreadsheet tells you, because the math is only intended to get you in the right range from a specific point of reference. The problem is that you don't know what range you got into, or where you started.


I wouldn't rule things out because others has had success with a spreadsheet.

That's where you're wrong. RO water comes in various qualities. RO rarely means 0ppm of anything.

Good! So don't repeatedly justify a part of your process is sound when you're flying blind.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time or be a jerk. It took me many failed batches over the course of many years to understand that you can not take ANYTHING for granted. Sure calculators and spreadhseets help and I use them, but if you really want to know what's going on you gotta measure everything and document everything meticulously. And I think you're going to do just that.

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What is interesting is that I am leaning towards agreeing with you wholeheartedly when I had, up until two brews ago, thought of water chemistry as an afterthought...something you don't worry about until your beer is already at a very high level. I have even been told by brewers around here, who have brewed commercially, that they just use our city tap water with no treatment. But the more I read, the more I think pH might prevent a newbie from ever getting to the point where they are brewing great beers...if they think the water is just an afterthought.

Don't worry about "being a jerk". I am honestly looking for every little tip to get to the point where every beer I brew is exceptional. I want to hear opinions or I wouldn't ask.

EDIT: and by the way, I wasn't using Bru'n Water to justify anything as being sound. I said I use Bru'n Water and bought a pH meter to eliminate that as a possibility. I meant as to future beers. I am not claiming the pH is not a problem here. I am merely saying it will not be in the future but I am also attempting to eliminate anything else that may cause astringency.

Yooper said:

I would be willing to bet that the "something" affecting your lighter beers is water chemistry. Even today (I'm brewing), using 100% RO water, I add to add a bit of acid malt to my batch to avoid a too-high mash pH. The beer has an SRM of 5, and is one of my lighter ones.

If you aren't using acid in your mash with the lighter colored beers, that is probably where that "something" is coming from.

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Please explain this acid malt please Yooper! I use RO water myself and trying to improve my brews. :rockin:

DarthCitra said:

Please explain this acid malt please Yooper! I use RO water myself and trying to improve my brews. :rockin:

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Acid malt is "acidulated malt"- a malt treated with lactic acid.

I learned about it in the Brew Science area of the forum, from AJ deLange. He makes a lot of German lagers, and uses it for pH reduction in the mash.

All of the spreadsheets to predict mash pH have it as a choice, and so I use it to lower the pH in the mash. It's about the same as using lactic acid, but it seems to have a certain complexity to the flavor. You don't want to overdo, as it would have a (sour) impact to flavor, but up to 3% acidulated malt in the recipe would not give a sour flavor, but it would lower the pH.

Try bru'nwater, for a good spreadsheet and great info on water. Even though the spreadsheet has a learning curve, there is a ton of great info on there even if you never use the spreadsheet itself. I found lots of information on ions, alkalinity, and the "hows" and "whys" so that I finally started to understand water chemistry in brewing.

Soviet (or Yooper...or anyone else in the know), a question just came to me: I don't have Bru'n Water on this device, but can I know what my pre-mash pH should be to get my grain bill at the ideal range before I mash? That would take a lot of "on the fly" adjustments out of the equation. I never looked on the spreadsheet to see if it told me because I didn't have a pH meter in the past.


Sent from here, because that's where I am.

I get an extra 1/2 gallon of clear wort onto the fermenter by filling my 1 gallon starter vessel (pickle jar ) with the boilpot dregs, let it settle in the fridge overnight, and decant to the already fermenting beer.


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railwalker said:

I get an extra 1/2 gallon of clear wort onto the fermenter by filling my 1 gallon starter vessel (pickle jar ) with the boilpot dregs, let it settle in the fridge overnight, and decant to the already fermenting beer.


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Interesting idea.


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This way you can stop siphoning when it begins to get cloudy, but still get all your wort.


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Ridire said:

Soviet (or Yooper...or anyone else in the know), a question just came to me: I don't have Bru'n Water on this device, but can I know what my pre-mash pH should be to get my grain bill at the ideal range before I mash? That would take a lot of "on the fly" adjustments out of the equation. I never looked on the spreadsheet to see if it told me because I didn't have a pH meter in the past.


Sent from here, because that's where I am.

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No. The mash pH will depend on the grist and the buffering capacity of your water- pH is not at all helpful in determining that. If you know your alkalinity off hand, you can guess but it may or may not be a good guess.

Yooper said:

No. The mash pH will depend on the grist and the buffering capacity of your water- pH is not at all helpful in determining that. If you know your alkalinity off hand, you can guess but it may or may not be a good guess.

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Thanks. It just seems like it would be tough to measure pH during the mash and make adjustments on the fly.


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Ridire said:

Thanks. It just seems like it would be tough to measure pH during the mash and make adjustments on the fly.


Sent from here, because that's where I am.

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Yes, it is. That's why it's good to do a test mash first, using a tiny bit of the grainbill and water, and check the pH of that. Then, you know what additions are needed when you make the beer.

Yooper said:

Yes, it is. That's why it's good to do a test mash first, using a tiny bit of the grainbill and water, and check the pH of that. Then, you know what additions are needed when you make the beer.

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Hadn't thought of that. So, a tiny mash, to scale, test the pH and go from there?


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Ridire said:

Hadn't thought of that. So, a tiny mash, to scale, test the pH and go from there?


Sent from here, because that's where I am.

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Yep!

I'd try something like brewer's friend's water chemistry spreadsheet if you don't have bru'nwater handy (it's been dead nuts accurate for me) to get you close, and then a test mash to ensure the correct additions and mash ph- then brew!

Yooper said:

Yep!



I'd try something like brewer's friend's water chemistry spreadsheet if you don't have bru'nwater handy (it's been dead nuts accurate for me) to get you close, and then a test mash to ensure the correct additions and mash ph- then brew!

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Awesome. Thanks. Same water that hits pH in the mash for the sparge? Or is that too simplistic?


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Ridire said:

Awesome. Thanks. Same water that hits pH in the mash for the sparge? Or is that too simplistic?


Sent from here, because that's where I am.

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Well, if you aren't able to use all RO water for the sparge, I'd still acidify the sparge water to make sure the pH was under 6.

Yooper said:

Well, if you aren't able to use all RO water for the sparge, I'd still acidify the sparge water to make sure the pH was under 6.

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I use all store bought RO now to eliminate chlorine.


Sent from here, because that's where I am.

My fermenters all have spigots.... pouring the trub into the fermenter brings the settlings level up so little or no beer is wasted. I transfer to a second vessel to cold crash, so if a bit of junk comes through with the beer at first, it settles out in the crash container. I crash in small increments (1 gallon) in a jug with a spigot, add my bottling sugar & gelatin when I transfer into this, and bottle directly out of it. With my 2.5 gallon batch size, I lose very little..... and with this small size, this IS a significant issue. It's NOT conventional at all, but it allows me to crash in the fridge and achieve nice clarity. I don't brew large quantities, so it works very efficiently for me.

H.W.

Ridire said:

I use all store bought RO now to eliminate chlorine.


Sent from here, because that's where I am.

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With RO water, which has very little alkalinity, you don't have to acidify or treat the sparge water.

If it's easiest, you can treat all your water at once. For me, since I make 10 gallon batches I have to refill my HLT so I generally treat mine separately.