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Old 03-30-2009, 12:31 PM   #1
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Default Paulaner Salvator (Doppelbock)

I'm devising a Doppelbock recipe and so naturally I'm interested in Paulaner Salvator. I've never had it. I read that it has changed relatively recently (but that could be as long as 10-15 years ago). It is supposedly lighter in color and not as good (obv subjective) as it used to be. Any truth to that?

Here is a decent article on it. Is the 'current' beer the same color as the pic in that article? Anybody familiar with 'older' Salvator compared to 'newer' Salvator?

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Old 03-30-2009, 01:38 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpanishCastleAle View Post
I'm devising a Doppelbock recipe and so naturally I'm interested in Paulaner Salvator. I've never had it. I read that it has changed relatively recently (but that could be as long as 10-15 years ago). It is supposedly lighter in color and not as good (obv subjective) as it used to be. Any truth to that?

Here is a decent article on it. Is the 'current' beer the same color as the pic in that article? Anybody familiar with 'older' Salvator compared to 'newer' Salvator?
I just bought some and drank most of it this weekend. I haven't had it before either though. It is excellent, a nice deep copper color, amazing maltiness, and a perfect amount of warming alcohol flavor. The head retention was less than what I expected. I had read somewhere that head retention should be very good with this beer, but mine subsided very quickly.

I'm sure I will drink the last two later tonight, I could try to get a good pic of the color if you want.

Can't tell you if its been changed at all, but I can tell you its pretty delicious!

Cheers
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Old 03-30-2009, 05:24 PM   #3
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Salvator looks more like the picture at the bottom of the article you linked to. I don't know what's up with that first picture. I hadn't heard that they changed it. We've been drinking it for 10 - 15 years. It's one of SWMBO's favorite beers. If you come up with a good recipe, let me know.

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Old 03-30-2009, 07:02 PM   #4
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Gussymo,
Here's a recipe/post that EdWort made in this thread:

Quote:
According to Beer Captured, here's the numbers.

SRM should be 22, IBU's 27, ABV 7.4%
OG 1.079-1.081
FG 1.021-1.022

7.5# 2 row pils
8# Munich
10 oz. Cara Munich
4 oz. Belgian Aromatic
0.5 oz. Chocolate Malt

Mash 90 min at 153

Use equal amounts of Northern Brewer and Hallertau Herzbruck at the beginning of a 90 minute boil.

You may add up to 6 oz. of Malto Dextrin near the end of the boil for added body and mouthfeel.

Ferment with Wyeast 2308 at 47-52 degrees for 4 weeks then 57-62 degrees for the remainder of the fermentation.
I was going to use more Pils and less Munich, no Aromatic but instead a little Crystal 60L...and I was gonna use Roasted Barley (less of it) instead of Chocolate malt.

However, I was reading this article on Oktoberfest beers and a guy from Wyeast said:
Quote:
"Our #2124 Bohemian yeast is the same as the famous Weihenstephan 34/70. It's the most popular lager yeast among microbrewers and brewpubs right now and is an excellent choice for Oktoberfest. 34/70 is moderately attenuating, leaving just a hint of sweetness in the beer. It has good flocculation, not too much and not too little. Malt and hop flavors come out well balanced, and ester production is low. It really likes the modern fermentation temperatures. Lately I've been recommending our new Czech strain #2278. It attenuates highly, making a beer that's on the dry side, but it really accentuates the malt in both flavor and aroma and seems to give a big, soft mouth feel. Ester production remains low even with high-gravity beers, so it's wonderful for Maerzen, bock, and doppelbock. Again it does well at modern fermentation temperatures. A real winner.


"Avoid our strains #2206 and #2308 when brewing Oktoberfest or other medium-high- to high-gravity beers. They're excellent yeasts, and #2206 is the most popular yeast in Europe these days. Unfortunately they both develop too much fruitiness in high-gravity beers. Those esters really clash with the malt in an Oktoberfest."
So I was going to use 2124 Bohemian Lager yeast since I have some washed jars of it on-hand. I plan to use the 2278 Czech strain (also a washed jar of it) for the Traditional Bock. I've read Trad Bocks are typically drier/toastier and Doppelbocks are typically sweeter/caramel-y. EDIT: For reference, WY2206 is the Weihenstephan 206 strain and WY2308 is the Wisenschaftliche Station #308 (Munich) strain. WY2278 is the Pilsner Urquell-D strain.

However, is a Doppelbock supposed to have some fruitiness going on?

I'm shooting for 17 Plato for the Trad Bock and 19 Plato for the Doppelbock...and slightly higher attenuation on the Trad Bock.
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Old 03-31-2009, 04:31 PM   #5
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Thanks SpanishCastleAle. Looks good. I will try it out.

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Old 03-31-2009, 04:59 PM   #6
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SCA, have you seen Kaiser's recipe? It might be a good reference point.

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Old 03-31-2009, 06:27 PM   #7
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Thanks Mensch. He does mention dark fruit notes being part of the style. But I think that's different than the 'fruitiness' the Wyeast guy was talking about. The reaction Kaiser mentions is a chemical reaction after it's off the yeast. Kaiser uses almost all Dark Munich and I don't have any of that so I guess l'll have to use Light Munich and a tiny bit of Roasted Barley. Maybe I'll add the Aromatic back in but still keep the Crystal 60 (and Caramunich).

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Old 03-31-2009, 07:41 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpanishCastleAle View Post
He does mention dark fruit notes being part of the style. But I think that's different than the 'fruitiness' the Wyeast guy was talking about. The reaction Kaiser mentions is a chemical reaction after it's off the yeast. Kaiser uses almost all Dark Munich and I don't have any of that so I guess l'll have to use Light Munich and a tiny bit of Roasted Barley. Maybe I'll add the Aromatic back in but still keep the Crystal 60 (and Caramunich).
I agree that the fruitiness in Doppelbocks isn't the same fruitiness produced by yeast during primary fermentation. It slowly develops over time during lagering/conditioning, but I'm not sure of the science behind it. I think that's one of the reasons doppelbocks have such a long lagering time... to help develop those flavor nuances.

For that roasted barley, you might consider the de-husked kind like Weyermann Carafa Special. Otherwise, there might be some unwanted roastiness.
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Old 03-31-2009, 08:08 PM   #9
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Quote:
I agree that the fruitiness in Doppelbocks isn't the same fruitiness produced by yeast during primary fermentation. It slowly develops over time during lagering/conditioning, but I'm not sure of the science behind it.
Hey there's a forum for that. Seems like some big Belgian beers might do a similar thing.

I guess I need to get some specialty grains to do it right. Dammit...I just ordered a ****load of grain.
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