My Founders Brewing Co Story

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HAH. Yes I am. Grrrr. English language, why you so difficult today?

In that case - It's added during fermentation? Strange... Now I'm going to have to find somewhere to pick up a bottle of this, for tasting.
 
Now I'm going to have to find somewhere to pick up a bottle of this, for tasting.

Unfortunately, they didn’t bottle the Cashew Mountain Brown. It was only available in their tap room and at a few local beer fests.

They did recently bottle a different "Mountain Brown" beer called Frangelic Mountain Brown. Made with hazelnuts and hazelnut coffee. It was their last release in the Founders Backstage Series and came out in July I think. You can still find 750ml bombers here and there.

Its pretty good, but not as good as Cashew Mountain Brown, IMO. It wasn’t nearly as popular as the other Backstage beers either IE: Canadian Breakfast Stout, Blushing Monk.
 
Founders helped out a few members on here in the past with some great responses. OG, hop/yeast/base malt type, etc. If you search for the Porter clone or the Double Trouble threads, they were pretty cool about it!

It's quite possible that things have changed. I know some of the management there, and they are all really good people, so the response, while unfortunate for anyone attempting to clone a brew, was polite as I would expect. Anyhow, I'm sure someone has added cashew effectively before! Good luck!
 
But, but, they used big words like proprietary and sounded like an evil government agency who denied me of my God given right as an Amurrican to cherry pick commercial craft beer recipes!
 
OP, they have given you a gift. That gift is the THRILL you will feel when, after 20 batches, you taste that beer and know that you figured out the secret without any help or handouts. You will drunkenly say "I built that" and you will know that it is true!

Then, I trust, you will let the rest of us know how you did it, clearly and concisely. I thank you in advance and will await this post :)
 
Think about it. They are in the production business and if they told everyone how to make their product then they wouldn't be in business.
This is absurd. Are you honestly telling me that any given craft brewery is one leaked recipe away from being put out of business by a curious homebrewer? HA! And if the concern is protecting the cashew addition mystery from other commercial breweries, honestly if a commercial brewery wanted to copy it, they eventually could. It would just take a little time and some test batches. I mean, I've only been brewing for a few years, and I have only basic equipment - yet within 3-4 batches I can come reasonably close to most commercial brews. You honestly think that a pro brewery couldn't clone any brew they wanted if they tried it and tweaked it a few times? Other than a proprietary yeast, ALL beers are clone-able. And about Founders' initial response which included "these recipes took years to perfect" - I hate it when breweries pretend that each and every beer they make took forever to create, as if they had to meditate on a mountain top somewhere for a decade before being inspired for this magical brew. I don't buy that it took them years to come up with this at all. A few months, several test batches, until they hit on something they like. Try a few different things, see which is better, do it that way. It's not exactly rocket science. Some brewers get a little vain about the whole "artist" aspect to brewing. They want to believe that they are Picasso, rather than the brewery janitors we basically are. Bottom line, in my book any brewer (pro or homebrewer - especially homebrewer) that is secretive about anything is an arrogant bastard(get it?). If you are confident in your abilities as a brewer, you have nothing to fear from sharing. No one recipe makes a great brewer - great technique and the willingness to try new things do. The arguments against sharing simply do not hold water. Now if you'll excuse me, I have an email to send to the colonel regarding his secret blend of herbs and spices.
 
But, but, they used big words like proprietary and sounded like an evil government agency who denied me of my God given right as an Amurrican to cherry pick commercial craft beer recipes!
Man - judging from your posts, you seem really worked up about this. Nobody is talking about it being our "right" to get commercial recipes - we're just saying that all the arguments against doing so are B.S., and all pro and homebrewers should openly share information - there's just no good reason not to. 99% of the most popular craft brews out there today could be easily re-created (or at least come close)at any brewery with a little time and a few test batches, so might as well be friendly and share.
 
Unfortunately, they didn’t bottle the Cashew Mountain Brown. It was only available in their tap room and at a few local beer fests.
This is the other thing - they obviously aren't trying to make a ton of money on this beer or build their brewery around it. It was a one-off, so why would they feel the need to "protect" it?
 
caber2615 said:
I thought you would all like to see the response I recieved from my follow up with Founders. Even though they did not provide me with too much additional information, at least my questions were acknowledged and some actual information given.

Ryan, Thanks for your support of Founders. The cashews are added during fermentation, not during the brew. Our yeast strain is proprietary. Cheers! Brad Stevenson | Vice President of Operations

I wonder if Brad still works @ founders?

Lots of companies have confidentiality agreements with their employees to protect proprietary information and processes. The company I work for has one. I can definitely see why companies have them. But it's brewi g it's not like the brewing process is some tightly guarded secret.

Makes you wonder how they treat their brewers and if they make them sign confidentiality and non-competition agreements.
 
I have had a completely different experience with them, at least from one of their reps. One of their reps was doing a tasting at a local liquor store and she seemed pretty knowledgeable and willing to share info. I did not press her, but she did tell me that they use only one strain of yeast for all their beers. I am not sure if she meant that for every beer they do or just the year rounds, which were being poured for the tasting. She also said that their pale ale is brewed specifically to propagate the yeast for other beers. From my limited knowledge of commercial brewing processes these things could be practices common to most breweries, but at least it is something.
 
Man - judging from your posts, you seem really worked up about this. Nobody is talking about it being our "right" to get commercial recipes - we're just saying that all the arguments against doing so are B.S., and all pro and homebrewers should openly share information - there's just no good reason not to. 99% of the most popular craft brews out there today could be easily re-created (or at least come close)at any brewery with a little time and a few test batches, so might as well be friendly and share.

Don't waste your keystrokes on me.

Contact Three Floyds and New Glarus and convince them they have no reason to keep their recipes secret because you know what's best for their business.

When they politely tell you to go pound some sand, then you can cry about it and complain to the internet.
 
Contact Three Floyds and New Glarus and convince them they have no reason to keep their recipes secret because you know what's best for their business.
I'm not saying its what's best for them - I'm just saying they really have no reason to be secretive when with a little time, any good brewer can replicate their beers anyway. We just look to them for info so we don't have to make as many test batches, and can start out with a better general idea of how they made it. If you think keeping recipes secret is so important, let's hear one good sound argument as to why. I understand that it is their right to keep secrets, I would just like to hear a logical explanation as to what it accomplishes.
 
I can understand them sending a canned response. I'm sure they get requests like this all the time and it takes time away from actual work. OTOH, there are a lot of brewers/brewery folks who are very forthcoming and willing to share info. It's been my experience that brewers - home or pro - who guard their info like a state secret only have these few recipes going for them and feel like if it's out there, they are sunk. Fact is, 40 brewers in the same town can brew the exact same recipe and will turn out 40 different tasting beers!
 
If Founders keeps making beer as well as they do, then I don't care how well they appease the populace.
 
I got the exact same canned response when I asked them a question about cerise

Thank you for your support and interest in Founders. As you can imagine, we have a lot of time and effort invested into the development of beers like Cerise. Unfortunately, we cannot share recipe or process information that is proprietary to Founders. We do wish you well in your brewing adventures.

We hope to be out in CA someday, but unsure when that will be exactly. Thank you in advance for your continued patience!

I'll still drink a cerise, or a breakfast stout every chance I can get my hands on them.
 
I think some are missing my point. I am not in any way saying that I am angry at the people at Founders, or that I would boycott their beer because of this. I am just wondering what the point is, when as I have said if another brewer really wanted to they could clone it without their help. Why not help a brother out when with a little time they will be able to do it anyway?
 
I think some are missing my point. I am not in any way saying that I am angry at the people at Founders, or that I would boycott their beer because of this. I am just wondering what the point is, when as I have said if another brewer really wanted to they could clone it without their help. Why not help a brother out when with a little time they will be able to do it anyway?

The way I see your point regardless of your good and harmless intentions is you are targeting publicly a brewery for not supplying you with intellectual property. First, I would not blame the brewery for one employee's response. Second, you're just a victim. You think you are entitled to any information without paying for it, but it's not your fault--like I said you are a victim (of middle class values).
 
you're just a victim. You think you are entitled to any information without paying for it
ONCE AGAIN, I am not saying it is my "right" to this information, I am not saying I am "entitled" to anything. I am just wondering what reason they would possibly have for keeping this info from a homebrewer. I still have heard no legitimate argument for it. Please name me anything negative that would come from them sharing some recipe info.
but it's not your fault--like I said you are a victim (of middle class values).
Leave it to the guy from DC to inject a political slant into this. I smell a conservative. Homebrew talk is the place I go to get away from political nonsense like this that is all over the place these days, take that stuff elsewhere.
 
AdamWiz said:
ONCE AGAIN, I am not saying it is my "right" to this information, I am not saying I am "entitled" to anything. I am just wondering what reason they would possibly have for keeping this info from a homebrewer. I still have heard no legitimate argument for it. Please name me anything negative that would come from them sharing some recipe info. Leave it to the guy from DC to inject a political slant into this. I smell a conservative. Homebrew talk is the place I go to get away from political nonsense like this that is all over the place these days, take that stuff elsewhere.

Property is not political. You are making it political. And you have the wrong idea about me and about DC as a whole. Your dilemma of wanting protected info for your hobby is completely insignificant.
 
So in other words.........you still can't make a legitimate argument as to why it needs to be kept secret. And you can claim you're not being political all you want, I know conservative talk when I hear it. Tell me I'm wrong - tell me you're not a GOP voter and I'll eat my hat.
 
So in other words.........you still can't make a legitimate argument as to why it needs to be kept secret. And you can claim you're not being political all you want, I know conservative talk when I hear it. Tell me I'm wrong - tell me you're not a GOP voter and I'll eat my hat.

Start eating your hat and stop making ridiculous assumptions. I don't support a political party and don't even vote.

Let's say I'm a home brewer and have the recipe for beer X. I can make beer X for 25 cents a bottle. It costs me $3 per bottle to buy it in the store. Guess what? I'm not buying beer X anymore and thank you so much for giving me your recipe so I no longer have to pay outrages prices for your beer!

I'll be sure to post the recipe on the internet so even more people can make your beer and not buy it in the store. I'll even post a copy of the private emails you sent me and tell the beer making community how cool you are, but I still don't see myself buying your beer anymore. Thanks a lot, SUCKER!!!

P.S. - beer X tastes better when I brew it :p
 
Start eating your hat and stop making ridiculous assumptions.
Wasn't talking about you. Although I am done with that angle anyway - I shouldn't have gone there.

Let's say I'm a home brewer and have the recipe for beer X. I can make beer X for 25 cents a bottle. It costs me $3 per bottle to buy it in the store. Guess what? I'm not buying beer X anymore and thank you so much for giving me your recipe so I no longer have to pay outrages prices for your beer!

I'll be sure to post the recipe on the internet so even more people can make your beer and not buy it in the store. I'll even post a copy of the private emails you sent me and tell the beer making community how cool you are, but I still don't see myself buying your beer anymore. Thanks a lot, SUCKER!!!

P.S. - beer X tastes better when I brew it :p

This is the first legitimate argument I have heard, although still not really convinced - by nature, people who make their own beer are not going to buy as much of their beer in the first place. In fact, as a homebrewer the only beers I buy regularly other than sours are beers that I am trying to make something similar to. Then I buy more to compare my test batches to, and more to have people taste side-by-side once I have come close. So when it is all said and done, by the time I am successful at cloning a beer I have bought far more of it than I otherwise would have. How many people on this board alone have recipes for Hopslam? Yet it still never sits on the shelf more than a few days without being sold out. How many people have Pliny Recipes (provided directly by Vinny, BTW)? Yet people far and wide still pine for it and even pay inflated prices on the internet. I could give 100 other examples - so while the logic for your argument is sound, in real life it just doesn't seem to happen like that. Plus, the recipe in question is from a one-off beer that they are done making - thus they obviously have no plans to sell me any more of it anyway. If I wanted to buy some right now, I couldn't.
 
Show me one instance where a brewery gave out a recipe and their sales increased as a result.

Tell me why a business would want to decrease demand for their product? Some breweries like Russian River have more demand than supply and they don't intend to expand anytime soon. It's a good problem to have. They see no problem giving away their recipes because it doesn't interfere with their successful business model.

Founders, on the other hand is a brewery that could be as large as Sam Adams someday. They want to get bigger. They have investors who want returns on their investment. They don't think it's wise to give away their recipes. They want to do things to increase sales, not decrease them. They aren't in a position to satisfy a demand that they can't fill because they have the capacity to fill it.

Open your own business someday and give away all the things that make your business viable and let me know how that works out for you.
 
How many people on this board alone have recipes for Hopslam? Yet it still never sits on the shelf more than a few days without being sold out.
Bell's is WAY bigger and more successful than Founders. I mean, we're talking about the biggest true craft brewery east of the Mississippi (sorry Sam Adams). And their 2 top selling beers BY FAR(Oberon and Two Hearted) both have the recipes out there. Doesn't seen to have hurt them much, judging by the gigantic new brewhouse they just opened. They put the Two Hearted recipe in "Zymurgy" themselves, for crying out loud. And they have helped a lot of people who contact them about homebrew versions of Oberon. So don't give me the "It's OK for a small brewery but not for a gig, successful, expanding one" argument. I'm not saying releasing the recipe would increase sales - just that it wouldn't really decrease them either.
Plus, the recipe in question is from a one-off beer that they are done making - thus they obviously have no plans to sell me any more of it anyway. If I wanted to buy some right now, I couldn't.
So explain to me how I would be taking food out of their investors' mouths by homebrewing a beer THEY NO LONGER SELL and never even bottled in the first place. Bell's isn't afraid of people brewing their two top sellers, yet Founders should be afraid of us brewing a one-off?
 
Who are you to say they will never brew it again? For all you know they have plans to make cashew brown or whatever it's called and produce it regularly.

Regarding the remainder of your post, I think you have a comprehension problem and I no longer have the patience to solve it for you.

Bottom line - not all breweries are the same. Just because one brewery does something, it doesn't mean other breweries should to do the same thing. Every brewery has their own set of goals. If they think giving away their recipes might interfere with those goals, then you shouldn't be too surprised.
 
Start eating your hat and stop making ridiculous assumptions. I don't support a political party and don't even vote.

Let's say I'm a home brewer and have the recipe for beer X. I can make beer X for 25 cents a bottle. It costs me $3 per bottle to buy it in the store. Guess what? I'm not buying beer X anymore and thank you so much for giving me your recipe so I no longer have to pay outrages prices for your beer!

I'll be sure to post the recipe on the internet so even more people can make your beer and not buy it in the store. I'll even post a copy of the private emails you sent me and tell the beer making community how cool you are, but I still don't see myself buying your beer anymore. Thanks a lot, SUCKER!!!

P.S. - beer X tastes better when I brew it :p


Seems highly legitimate. I mean Vinnie gives away not just processes but entire recipe's, including his flagship beers(PtE, PtY, Supplication, Consecration etc).

Because of his generosity to homebrewers Russian River Brewpub is a total ghost town (Said by no one, ever). The pub is always packed, and even local bottle shops have a hard time keeping some of their beers in stock.

Just because some brewers choose to give away their knowledge, recipe and process doesn't mean others have to. I (and the OP I'm sure) would have liked it if Founders had been willing to answer our question but they're certainly not required to. I do however think the cheesy canned response is doing their PR department a disservice.
 
Google is your friend:
"COMMERCIAL DESCRIPTION
Imperial Brown Ale. Aged in maple syrup–bourbon barrels for 287 days in the caves beneath Grand Rapids. Crushed cashews are added into the fermenters and the barrels—and you won’t doubt it when you try it. "

Now how hard was that? Stop pestering the brewer about stuff that already is out there.
 
It's not like adding nuts to a beer is some complex riddle either. There are only a few ways to do it. Pick one and brew the damn beer.
 
Like I said, more demand than supply is a good problem to have.

Except other breweries like Bells, Lagunitas and Stone doing the same thing kind of shoots a hole in that argument.

Look I'm not saying they have to give out a process or a recipe, my only point was I took the time to write you, as a fan of your product to ask you a specific question. You can take the 2 minutes to write back and say sorry we've made a business decision not to share. Sending a copy/paste canned response is poor marketing & PR.
 
It wasn't an argument. It was simply a statement that explains why RR doesn't have a problem giving a way their recipes.

It doesn't mean a brewery should only give out their recipes if they have a higher demand than supply.

Now we are back to the circular argument of Brewery XYZ does it, so other breweries should too which is complete non-sense.
 
ooops...double post

The response from Founders wouldn't have hurt my feelings if that is how they responded to my email. Yes, it's a canned response. So what? It's professional and it tells you what you need to know.

Do you really need a custom letter made just for you that says their recipe is a secret? Maybe you feel you deserve some free Founders' schwag as a consolation prize for not getting their recipe? Maybe some coupons for free beer? Perhaps a T-shirt?
 
So in other words.........you still can't make a legitimate argument as to why it needs to be kept secret.
You shouldn't try to argue this angle. There are lots of reasons NOT to do something, starting with "It takes effort." You should be the one supplying reasons that they SHOULD publish their recipes. Like most things in this world, the answer is, "Inertia."

Bell's is WAY bigger and more successful than Founders. I mean, we're talking about the biggest true craft brewery east of the Mississippi (sorry Sam Adams). And their 2 top selling beers BY FAR(Oberon and Two Hearted) both have the recipes out there. Doesn't seen to have hurt them much, judging by the gigantic new brewhouse they just opened.
I'd love to see you give this little speech to the guys at Northern Brewer, who spent time and effort cloning Two-Hearted, marketing it, selling it, and then got presented with a cease-and-desist from Bell's.

The "legitimate" arguments for a brewery not providing recipes can begin and end with, "Its not worth the effort," right up until YOU provide some reasoned arguments for why it would be in their net benefit. One step down the ladder from whining about not being given a recipe is whining about not being given an explanation for not being given a recipe.

It turns out, you're not entitled to either.
 
Founders has always been pretty tight-lipped about this sort of stuff. No surprise. I like their beers, but I guess I don't understand the hype. They all taste and feel very similar to me.
 
Founders has always been pretty tight-lipped about this sort of stuff. No surprise. I like their beers, but I guess I don't understand the hype. They all taste and feel very similar to me.

I'm waiting for a nitpicker to say Cerise tastes nothing like Devil Dancer. Therefore, your statement is invalid. :D

But, I'm not saying it, because I understand what you mean. :tank:

I've tried several Founders beers and all of them are solid. My only complaint about the brewery is their limited edition brews are waaaaay too limited and are basically impossible to get.
 
Let's say I'm a home brewer and have the recipe for beer X. I can make beer X for 25 cents a bottle. It costs me $3 per bottle to buy it in the store. Guess what? I'm not buying beer X anymore and thank you so much for giving me your recipe so I no longer have to pay outrages prices for your beer!

I'll be sure to post the recipe on the internet so even more people can make your beer and not buy it in the store. I'll even post a copy of the private emails you sent me and tell the beer making community how cool you are, but I still don't see myself buying your beer anymore. Thanks a lot, SUCKER!!!

On the contrary, when Spike from Terrapin Brewing personally responded to an e-mail with hints on how to brew their Gamma Ray Wheatwine (ie, grain proportions and yeast suggestion -- the hop strains and IBU levels are listed on their website), I was extremely grateful and have used his ideas to successfully brew my first Hefeweizen. Eventually, it will help me clone Gamma Ray, but I'll still buy Gamma Ray whenever I find it in the store...

Not only that, I'm even more likely than I was before to buy other Terrapin brews as well...
 
The response from Founders wouldn't have hurt my feelings if that is how they responded to my email. Yes, it's a canned response. So what? It's professional and it tells you what you need to know.

Fyi, I never said it hurt my feelings, I said I thought it was a poor PR move and they could have done better.

Do you really need a custom letter made just for you that says their recipe is a secret? Maybe you feel you deserve some free Founders' schwag as a consolation prize for not getting their recipe? Maybe some coupons for free beer? Perhaps a T-shirt?

Seriously? No I don't feel Founders owes me anything, nor did I display any sense of entitlement about anything. I think you're seriously reaching on a non sequitur.

Go look at Founder's twitter page, they have people dedicated to social media, and interacting with their consumers. They could very easily have had that same person reply to the email with a simple one paragraph response that would have taken them all of sixty seconds to type rather than a 5 second copy/paste.

Dehumanizing communications only lends to alienating consumers, it's their right to communicate in such a way, it just may or may not be in their best interest.
 
Fyi, I never said it hurt my feelings, I said I thought it was a poor PR move and they could have done better.

Dehumanizing communications only lends to alienating consumers, it's their right to communicate in such a way, it just may or may not be in their best interest.

If you feel alienated as a potential customer because you didn't get a custom made response, you are definitely taking it personally. You feel disrespected as a potential customer because they didn't take the time to write a letter especially for you. If that's not taking it personally, I don't know what is.

Fortunately for Founders, you can't buy their beer or stop buying it simply because they sent you a canned response. When they get around to distributing in CA, don't buy their beer. That will really teach them a lesson in PR.

You definitely aren't taking it as personally as the OP. I'd like to read his huffy puffy letter that he sent Founders after he didn't get what he wanted. I'm sure it's pure gold.
 

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