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Old 04-07-2012, 06:17 PM   #151
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I'm certainly no expert on the this subject.

But if there is a problem with alcohol and Christianity, how do you explain the Trappist Monks, who have been making for centuries some of the best beer in the world?


From Wikipedia:
A Trappist beer is a beer brewed by or under control of Trappist monks. There are a total of 174 Trappist monasteries worldwide (as of April 2011); only seven (six in Belgium, one in the Netherlands) produce Trappist beer and are authorized to label their beers with the Authentic Trappist Product logo that indicates a compliance to the various rules of the International Trappist Association.
Christianity had various subcultures within that disagree over this. Southern Baptists and other fundamentalists would say those monks have missed a clear teaching in scripture against alcohol. I think they're wrong about what scripture says, though. By-and-large I don't think Catholics have a problem with alcohol (though I am by no means an expert in Catholic teaching and practice), and Protestants don't have monks. Some of the protestants that don't like drinking might just say that's another thing that the Catholics got wrong, and something other protestants (Presbies, Lutherans) have compromised with Rome on.

Taking your logic to the extreme--many Christians have done awful things, like the crusades, but that doesn't mean every Christian thinks we should keep doing that.
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:18 PM   #152
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So fast food is out too, because it will kill you? So much for all the big, fat-filled church potlucks which are actually sinful because fat is not good for you and will kill you. Ice cream--fatty sugar that will kill you. I believe alcohol is proven to be harmful to the liver, I guess OP and the rest of us should quit brewing and consuming.

I don't go in for the above logic, so I'll keep enjoying my pipes, cigars, and cigarettes just like my beer--in moderation. I smoke about once a week, if that, so I'm not scared of dying any time soon. What's more, scripture does not enjoin abstinence from tobacco any more than alcohol, so man may not bind my conscience in that regard. If you are convicted otherwise, by all means, abstain.
Who said that fast food in moderation will kill you? or Church Potlucks in moderation? Or Ice-cream in moderation? Or sugar in moderation? Did you research liver disease from Alcohol consumption to really understand how it comes about?

Though, let's take it a step further, our imperfect body essentially stops working over the course of our lives of only 60-100 years. See my point? Anything or everything can "kill" you in some way.

I commend you for trying to be moderate, as Gal 5:22 speaks of the fruitages of the spirit, that we are display "self-control" and 1 Cor 9:24-27 speaks of "self-control" as a runner does to prepare for a race.

Speaking of those who are gluttons, Prov 28:7 warns against having "companionship with gluttons".

Don't we agree, though, that eating is a natural and proper, needed for our bodies to survive (even some alcoholic beverages have their abilities to help; provided we don't over-indulge in either). In contrast smoking tobacco is not natural. How many chemicals in an ice-cream are poisonous to us? However there is a litany of chemicals in tobacco, 250 are known to poisonous, carcinogenic cancer causing.

Like I said, would we sniff smog out of the tailpipe of the car for a couple hours, even every other week, knowing it will kill us eventually? It is your body, do as you wish. But, don't make the claim that tobacco and food has the same affect on your body.
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Old 04-09-2012, 02:55 PM   #153
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By-and-large I don't think Catholics have a problem with alcohol (though I am by no means an expert in Catholic teaching and practice)....
If by problem you mean attitude to Alcohol, the Catholic Church would say several of the following. 1. Moderation is key. 2. Alcohol is a luxuray (compared to say food, but not when compared to say diamonds) so if it keeps you - or those you are responsible for - from eating, then you have to fix priorities.

If by problem, you mean drunkness, then I'd say the members (both religous and lay) are probably about the same % as the rest of the world.
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Old 04-09-2012, 03:01 PM   #154
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I'm in seminary and a candidate for ordination with the Methodist church. I just received word that I'm receiving an appointment as pastor at a small rural church in NC this upcoming summer. While I have no theological/moral complications with brewing, drinking and being a pastor, I'm wondering what the church I'll be pastoring might think.

Knowing that this is a forum for homebrewers, I'm not expecting anybody on here to have any objections to a minister who brews and drinks. My concern is what would all of your grandmas say about it.

And... discuss.
pray about it, talk to the board of elders (or whatever you call it there) about it
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Old 04-09-2012, 03:24 PM   #155
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Who said that fast food in moderation will kill you? or Church Potlucks in moderation? Or Ice-cream in moderation? Or sugar in moderation? Did you research liver disease from Alcohol consumption to really understand how it comes about?

Though, let's take it a step further, our imperfect body essentially stops working over the course of our lives of only 60-100 years. See my point? Anything or everything can "kill" you in some way.

I commend you for trying to be moderate, as Gal 5:22 speaks of the fruitages of the spirit, that we are display "self-control" and 1 Cor 9:24-27 speaks of "self-control" as a runner does to prepare for a race.

Speaking of those who are gluttons, Prov 28:7 warns against having "companionship with gluttons".

Don't we agree, though, that eating is a natural and proper, needed for our bodies to survive (even some alcoholic beverages have their abilities to help; provided we don't over-indulge in either). In contrast smoking tobacco is not natural. How many chemicals in an ice-cream are poisonous to us? However there is a litany of chemicals in tobacco, 250 are known to poisonous, carcinogenic cancer causing.

Like I said, would we sniff smog out of the tailpipe of the car for a couple hours, even every other week, knowing it will kill us eventually? It is your body, do as you wish. But, don't make the claim that tobacco and food has the same affect on your body.
I was not saying those things were wrong in moderation, you were the one saying that something dangerous when immoderately used should not be used at all. I smoke tobacco moderately, drink moderately, and eat unhealthy food moderately. I assume you do the same, except for smoking tobacco. Is fast-food natural? Will smoking a cigarette once or twice a week (moderation) kill you? You say that anything will in a way, but why is tobacco picked out as the one that can't be done in moderation, while eating unhealthy food can be done in moderation. Food is necessary for survival, but is McDonald's necessary?
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Old 04-09-2012, 05:08 PM   #156
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Will smoking a cigarette once or twice a week (moderation) kill you? You say that anything will in a way, but why is tobacco picked out as the one that can't be done in moderation, while eating unhealthy food can be done in moderation.
Now you've gone from smoking not even once a week, to smoking once or twice a week. When someone becomes as defensive about something as you have it is not unreasonable to think there may be an addiction.

The evidence is that smoking even a couple of cigarettes a week is observably damaging to your health. Cigarettes are thought to be as physically addictive as heroin.

By your logic, crack cocaine and methamphetamine should also be appropriate for a Christian to use, if only done in moderation.
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Old 04-09-2012, 07:38 PM   #157
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Now you've gone from smoking not even once a week, to smoking once or twice a week. When someone becomes as defensive about something as you have it is not unreasonable to think there may be an addiction.

The evidence is that smoking even a couple of cigarettes a week is observably damaging to your health. Cigarettes are thought to be as physically addictive as heroin.

By your logic, crack cocaine and methamphetamine should also be appropriate for a Christian to use, if only done in moderation.
Akin to saying "I'll slit my wrists only once or twice a month for fun, I mean the bible doesn't say "don't slit your wrists!"" Hey as long as it doesn't kill you right away and the bible doesn't spell it out to you like a your a 4 year old, everything cool if it's in moderation
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:06 PM   #158
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I'm really addicted, which is why I can give up any nicotine source for lent and have no problem abstaining, and why I'll often go weeks on end without smoking at all when I get too busy to enjoy them. I have also given up smoking during sports seasons for months on end.

Maybe I don't have an addictive personality, but I've been smoking for years and I'm not addicted. The idea that any tobacco consumption is sinful is not biblical, it's a reflection of society's demonization of tobacco. Again, McD's won't kill you right away, and the Bible doesn't forbid it, but it's bad for you. Be consistent.

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Old 04-09-2012, 08:13 PM   #159
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By your logic, crack cocaine and methamphetamine should also be appropriate for a Christian to use, if only done in moderation.
Quite the straw man. As a christian, you are supposed to follow the laws of man as well as those of god, aren't you? One substance is legal, and one of god's creations. Your examples are chemicals created by man, and illegal.
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:26 PM   #160
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By your logic, crack cocaine and methamphetamine should also be appropriate for a Christian to use, if only done in moderation.
thank you. i have been waiting for a voice of reason to echo what i've always felt to be true. Now i can let er RIP!!!! woooo whooo!
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