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Old 08-17-2009, 03:11 AM   #11
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The big difference that I can see in AG vs. PM is that with PM the bulk of your gravity is coming from extract, which is going to be pretty consistent in terms of quality and flavor. With an inexperienced brewer, they're not going to hit consistent mash temperatures, they're going to forget to vorlauf, they're going to miss their target volumes and gravities, etc. So the body, flavor, head retention, and so on are going to vary more from batch to batch than with a PM, just because of the larger percent contribution of those characteristics that they have direct control over.

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Old 08-17-2009, 03:14 AM   #12
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OP AG is really easy.It can be complicated if you want it to be.So can extract,But a single infusion mash and batch sparge is easy.3-4 hours including clean up.And makes way better beer,IMO anyway.Like yooper said.Maybe I just wasnt as skilled when I did extract/PM,but I doubt that is the case.Just my .02

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Old 08-17-2009, 11:01 AM   #13
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I would like to see a break down in time on these 3.5 hour all grain batches.

This is NOT an all grain bash or anything like that it's just a personal experience in the All Grain batches I have tasted.

NOW REMEMBER - I consider most people that brew on this forum better then the normal brewer. I would think that if you take the average AG batch from an HBT forum member and and an average AG from a NON HBT you would see a large difference.

(I am really curious on the 3.5 hours AG batches though).

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Old 08-17-2009, 11:11 AM   #14
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I would like to see a break down in time on these 3.5 hour all grain batches.
3.5 - 4 hours is a standard brewday for me, so I can spell this out fairly quickly from experience.

1) Crush grain while heating sparge and strike water, the volume of which is determined by the total poundage of the grainbill less .10-.12 absorption factor during the mash. 30 minutes
2) Conduct hour-long mash 60 minutes
3) Vorlauf for clarity and to set the grainbed, then drain MLT. 15-20 minutes
4)After total boil volume is collected, begin heating for the boil. 30 minutes (During this time, multi-task! Clean the MLT, sanitize and cap your fermenter, prep hop additions, etc)
5) 60 minute boil
6) Chill, 10 minutes.
7) Transfer to fermenter and pitch yeast.

It's not a race, but just an efficient use of downtime to keep cleanup to a minimum.
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Old 08-17-2009, 11:17 AM   #15
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Most of my "regular" batches are 3.5-4 hours, with decoction/step mashes being longer.

I generally am a very organized person, so it really goes like clockwork. I start heating the strike water, and then go downstairs to crush the grain. By then, I have the equipment all ready and then mash in. I usually do a 60 minute mash. The sparge water is heating during the mash, so as soon as the mash is done, I vorlauf and run it off. Then, I put the first runnings on to boil while I batch sparge. That takes just a few minutes, and by then the wort is already simmering and on its way to boiling. I do a 60 minute boil, chill, put into the fermenter and finish cleaning up. I do multiple things at a time- while the boil is starting, I measure all the hops. After I add the first hops, I clean the MLT and put things away. I also start sanitizing my equipment doing the boil/chilling, so it's ready. For a time line, it would look like this:

20 minutes: Measure, heat strike water. Set up thermometer and MLT.
1 Hour: Mash in. After all set, gather up the rest of equipment (wort chiller, etc) which is all together in the basement.
15 minutes: Drain first runnings, set on to boil. Vorlauf, then batch sparge.
75 minutes: Bring the wort to a boil and boil for 60 minutes.
20 minutes: Chill wort, while sanitizing and cleaning up.

So, about 3.25 hours of actually doing something. There is still a little leeway in timing. Somedays, I do a shorter or longer mash. Sometimes I FWH or I might fly sparge. It just depends on what I'm doing that day.

I think that PM wouldn't be faster- I mean, a mash is a mash no matter how big it is. It still takes an hour to convert, for example. The only "quicker" part would be if you did a partial boil, so you could get it boiling faster.

I'm not disagreeing with you that PM beer can be very good- I just don't think it's a time savings over AG since you're doing essentially the same thing for the same length of time.

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Old 08-17-2009, 01:51 PM   #16
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Grinder12000 - Clean out your PM's man I can't get anything to you.

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Old 08-17-2009, 02:03 PM   #17
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WELL - the brews that got the highest ratings were the partial mashers and NOT the All grain people.
Thinking about this we all know that All Grain IS better then Partial mash IF the brewer is skilled.
I suspect many people start brewing all-grain before they have enough experience to brew consistently and before they have a strong grasp of the characteristics of various grains and styles. I've also observed an unfortunate tendency to brew beyond the capacity of their equipment, undersized mash tuns, kettles, etc.

Good beer is simple, great beer takes skill, talent and experience.

I can do a PM in 2.5 hours. It's all a matter of exact timing.
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Old 08-17-2009, 03:34 PM   #18
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Rottnme - Sorry dude - I cleaned out incoming but not outgoing and then I guess my subscription ran out! OOPS!

Cleaned!

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Old 08-17-2009, 03:38 PM   #19
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I can do a PM in 2.5 hours. It's all a matter of exact timing.
What? How - do you use a micro wave?

You have 2 hours for mashing and boiling and 1/2 for everything else? Does your water heat instantly?

Do you get 5 gallons to cool from 212 to 75 in like 5 minutes?
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Old 08-17-2009, 04:46 PM   #20
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I cheat. While the mash is on, I bring the sparge water to a boil and toss in the bittering hops. When the mash is done, I drain to the kettle and put it on the burner. The bitter water (with pH 5.2) goes in the mash tun. Stir, drain, add the rest, (Stir extract into kettle) stir, drain. Bring it to a boil. Make the flavor and aroma adds. Chilling takes 15-25 minutes depending on the time of year.

Got the ideas from a pro who worked it out as a way to get two mash runs in a day. He doesn't sparge as hot, but has an instantaneous heater between the mash tun and the kettle.

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