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Old 10-05-2012, 03:50 PM   #31
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That'll shut them down
...Yeah I know. But If the company wont even acknowledge and deny my request they don't deserve my business.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:28 PM   #32
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You still sound incredibly entitled.

They can do what they want with their own product; they don't owe you anything and they don't need to kiss your ass when they say "no" - a simple "obvious reasons" is fine - trade secrets, duh.
You sound like you don't have a clue what the word "entitled" means.

Him saying that he's not going to spend his own money on the product of a company that didn't act in a way for which he cared is not entitlement.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:34 PM   #33
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A list of ingredients doesn't mean much.

Water profile, yeast management, fermentation temperature, filtering, etc. are all more important than x% 2-row, y% crystal, etc.
This.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:43 PM   #34
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O'Dell gave you a list of the malts and hops that they use. As a homebrewer you should be able to glean a recipe from that information and the style guidelines that should get you very close to their recipe. It will probably take some work on your end, and likely several attempts, but you can get there on your own. It is their recipe and they can choose to share it with you or not, but they don't owe you anything as a customer besides the quality beer they sell to you. A lot of breweries will also list their IBUs, OG, SB, and alcohol percentage on their bottles - the information is out there, you just need to gather it together.

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Old 10-05-2012, 05:25 PM   #35
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You sound like you don't have a clue what the word "entitled" means.

Him saying that he's not going to spend his own money on the product of a company that didn't act in a way for which he cared is not entitlement.
Sure it is. Buying a company's products doesn't obligate the company to forge a personal relationship with you. All it means is they owe you a product that lives up to their promises, for the price advertised. I think expecting anything beyond that certainly qualifies as "entitlement."
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Old 10-05-2012, 05:33 PM   #36
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I'm a bit confused by this conversation. I assume that most of us have been in and around small breweries around the country. My brewer friends often work double brew days - meaning that they're already knocking out 16 hours a day just trying to get beer out the door to make their rent and utility bills. They certainly don't owe me (or anyone else) those few minutes from 1am to 1:05 am to respond to my email.

Hey, if they choose to do it - awesome, but to be have a problem with them not doing it, that seems a bit silly.

Feel free to vote with your $$$ - that's your right, certainly. Just like it's their right to respond to you or not and to share their recipe or not.

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Old 10-05-2012, 05:44 PM   #37
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This applies to other industries, too. Linux source code is freely available, while Windows is not. Yet Microsoft is obviously massively more successful than RedHat. OpenOffice vs. Microsoft Office. GIMP vs. Photoshop. Openly sharing information may be a nice gesture, and appreciated by niche afictionados, but it seems to be counter-productive to achieving mass-market success.
The popularity of Windows is based on the software available for it, which was based on the success of Windows, which was based on... and it all goes back to the IBM name and very limited early competition. Linux entered well after Microsoft had the market. Had Linux had the running start and IBM association, Windows may have had the door slammed. OpenOffice also competes with enormous brand loyalty based on media attention (as Apple has now) and the advertising dollars that drove the attention. Being familiar with both GIMP and Photoshop I find GIMP very limited. If it was even in the running I would bolt from anything Adobe. I stopped upgrading Adobe products a few years ago but use the core elements with help from Qimage and Vuescan. For me it is not the secrecy of products (although I would love to know the secret to KFC's success with that chicken) it is established market position. Microsoft products may still have much of the market but Borland and later Linux, OO and many others really forced their pricing down.
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Old 10-05-2012, 05:46 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Darwin18
O'Dell gave you a list of the malts and hops that they use. As a homebrewer you should be able to glean a recipe from that information and the style guidelines that should get you very close to their recipe. It will probably take some work on your end, and likely several attempts, but you can get there on your own. It is their recipe and they can choose to share it with you or not, but they don't owe you anything as a customer besides the quality beer they sell to you. A lot of breweries will also list their IBUs, OG, SB, and alcohol percentage on their bottles - the information is out there, you just need to gather it together.
This.

I recently spent a solid 2 days tinkering around with beersmith and scouring the internet for information on Goose Island's Bourbon County Stout. Eventually I came up with a theory about how the beer must be put together. This was based on my brewing knowledge and a few logic games that I used, for example: why is Munich malt listed second after pale malt? Why are they using it at all in such a huge beer? Why not just use more crystal malt instead? If it were just a small amount, who would even notice in a beer that big?

After thinking about it for several days, I decided that the challenge is to use as much Munich as possible while still converting the specialty grains. And with that aim in mind, I took the IBU info and the SRM info and starting putting numbers into Beersmith until I had a solid recipe that reached all the numbers. (And then I modified the recipe due to my MLT being unable to handle that much grain).

I agree that if they gave you the malt used (and probably listed them in a logical format... Malts listed from most to least, and hops either listed by proportion or maybe based on the order in which they are added into the boil), then you just need to do a little detective work now.

And if you don't feel experienced enough to do that, then start a thread here, post ALL the information you have, no matter how insignificant it seems, and get people to help you figure it out.

Here. I did some of the work for you. I have determined that they probably listed the ingredients in reverse order to throw you off the scent. This is pretty obvious since 2 row should almost always be the first thing listed, not the last and Mt Hood is more of an aroma hop whereas Centennial is used more for bittering. However, having used Honey malt before, I would be surprised if there is more of it than the cara amber... Equal proportions, perhaps? If you can find the SRM and IBU's, give me an idea as to how it tastes, and provide OG/FG info and whatever else you can dig up, I bet someone could narrow it down even farther.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:15 PM   #39
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I wouldn't blame or purposefully shun a brewery for not wanting to give out a recipe or significant help, but I would definitely be more inclined throw extra support in the direction of a brewery that does.

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Old 10-05-2012, 06:18 PM   #40
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Boulevard is just great guys all around. Started in 5 gallon batches in his basement, When he got the building and all the licencing he carried a keg down the street to the closest Mexican restaurant and asked them to sell his beer. They told him no, he offered it for free to the customers to get a response. Guys in there love homebrewers.

I toured Spoetzl Brewery last year, while it used to be one of my favorite beers the tour guides really made me mad and I haven't bought much since. I asked what hops they use for their Shiner Bock and they told me they couldn't tell me. They had cups of hops they were passing around for people to smell but wouldn't tell anyone what each type of hop was or what they were used for, just "Used in the brewing process." I was a fairly knew brewer so I couldn't really identify the hops. Sad.

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