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Old 06-28-2012, 12:38 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Xpertskir View Post
I brew outside and steep at between 145-150. So to go from that to over 200 it'll take a little time, but not as much time as it takes to transfer to the boil kettle for you all grain guys.

Let me ask it a different way. What temperature is your wort when you transfer it to the kettle, and how long does it take?

Another thought comes to mine, since I will get better hop utilization from my FWH due to having a lower gravity wort, should I cut back the FWH amount?
I batch sparge and whenever I used FWH I always put them in my empty BK just before running off the mash, start heating that immediately and then add the batch sparge to the MT, so the hops are in contact with the wort for over 90 minutes by the time I turn the flame off. When I try this in replacing the early hop addition, I'm going to try what tre9er does and add the FWH at the point the batch sparge is finished running off AND I'll try adding them before the first mash runoff and see which I like best.

When I have used FWH, one thing I noticed was no boilover - or at least much less of a chance to boil over. Has anyone else noticed this?
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Old 06-28-2012, 12:41 PM   #42
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Anyone find that certain hop types are better to use as FWH than others?
Yes, I'm curious what others have to say on this, too.
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Old 06-28-2012, 01:19 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by H-ost
I love FWH, I have been doing it on pretty much all of my recipes for a while now.

But you have it backwards. The bitterness is much less than a 60 min addition, many people calculate it as a 20-25 min addition as far as IBUs go.
I brewed the Zombie Dust clone. Skeezrpleezer explains that FWH acts like a 20 minute addition when you calculate the IBUs.
I used the FWH in place of the 60 minute addition. Logic tells me that the IBUs should be calculated as a 60 minute addition. I mean, its in there for the whole time.
I didn't read much info on FWH, I just followed the recipe. I am interested in hearing more about it. And that Zombie Dust clone is awesome!
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Old 06-28-2012, 01:42 PM   #44
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I think Palmer stated that late hop additions should be replaced for FWH, something about 30%.. correct me if I"m wrong.
This is correct. The "proper" way to FWH (according to what I've read in books) is to replace one of the later additions, however, I don't think most follow this. From what I've seen, most will either replace the 60min addition or add a FWH as a completely new addition. I've experimented with all three, and found that it really depends on the type of beer, and whether you're formulating a new recipe vs. changing one that you've brewed many times.

If you're changing an old recipe and you only want more smoothness without adding any more perceived bitterness, then you would probably want to replace a later addition. If you're wanting to increase the bitterness and overall hoppiness while making it more smooth, add a FWH addition as a completely new addition.

Personally, I think they're all great ways to add hops and which one you chose is mostly based on what you want the final product to be.
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Old 06-28-2012, 03:14 PM   #45
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This is what I love about HomeBrewTalk - a good chance to share ideas and listen to others from all over everywhere!

I started this after my first experiment and the first taste was more bitter than I was expecting - what I did not mention was that the brew was still young. It has aged about a week from that first taste and has mellowed a great deal - that strong bitterness has moved into the background (which is where I want it in this beer) and the smoothness has remained. So it is shaping up to be a very successful experiment.

This weekend I plan to FWH again - in my case I put the hops in the Brew Kettle when the kettle is still dry. That is the way I understood the articles I found and I am starting to like the results - so COOL. I do plan to add the "flavor" hops toward the end as would be "normal".

Thanks to all for making this what I consider to be a very good thread!
David

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Old 06-29-2012, 09:24 AM   #46
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I think that we can not take IBU's for granted. In hops, there are several thousand compounds that affect taste, and IBU's are just an expression of bitterness (which is actually measured by milligrams per liter of isomerized α acids in the beer) but I"m sure not all bittering compounds have same tase.
Tests have shown that the bitterness from FWH is more pleasant than 60 min. addition, the question is what happens to other compounds during the FWH and how they affect the taste, and this compounds cannot be measured.

Also, FWH technique is different from one to other, since one will do fly sparge and first wort hops are longer soaked in 150s wort, other will do batch sparge so hops will soak much less. Someone will turn heat after 1st running and other will wait until all wort is completed...
Recipe also makes big change, eg. if it is maltier/sweeter beer of hop-head beer...

All this creates space for further researching of this technique (which is actually the beauty of this hobby) and I hope that one day we will find out solid arguments about FWH.
Until then, experiment and keep writing about your results. I know that I will surely do a lot of batches with this technique to find out what best suits to me.

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Old 06-29-2012, 01:08 PM   #47
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Tre9er--I go in dry and/or as soon as I finish vorlaufing.

Jkendal--as far as I can tell, most hops work with FWH. I've done Chinook, Amarillo, Simcoe, Nugget, Mt. Hood, Columbus, Cascade, EKG, Liberty, Fuggles, etc.

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Old 06-29-2012, 01:47 PM   #48
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I have actually done some online searching for the mechanism behind FWH and the results are less than stellar. What we are talking about in FWH is IBU vs perceived bitterness. FWH increases IBU levels but does not increase perceived bitterness. From what I can understand, and what Palmer mentions, is that FWH causes the hop compounds to solubilize in the wort, and thus are no longer volatile and do not escape during boiling. What you are left with is as follows:
1. Increased IBUs
2. Decreased perceived bitterness
3. Increased levels of retained hop compounds as compared to a boil addition (this is possible why so many equate FWH to a 15-20 min addition)

The mechanism that I theorize simply has to do with energy. With an energy input level lower than boiling(say 150-170), the hop compounds undergo X reaction and with an energy input level at boiling the hop compounds undergo Y reaction. If your hop compounds undergo reaction X, then they cannot undergo reaction sequence Y; and if your hop compounds undergo reaction sequence Y then they were not subject to X.

Lots of chemical reactions that take place in the world are relative to the energy levels of the surrounding system. Think about what happens if you mash at 148 vs 158; the difference in which amylase is more or less active is relative to the energy level of the system. And the energy level we measure is in Temperature. Granted, these are enzymatic reactions but the theory is the same.

I have no idea what happens chemically(isomerization?, nucliophilic substitution? trans-atomic laser-fication?) and the interwebs have no idea either. But what I do know is, the only differences between FWH and a boil addition is the energy level of the surrounding medium and the time immersed in that system. And we know that time does not seem as critical for FWH as it does for boil addition(see earlier post on the 1995 paper) so my current theory is that its all 'bout energy levels.


I wish I had access to a GC/Mass Spec to bring in 2 identical worts(one FWH and the other not) and see what the differences are.

Jeff "its all bout delta G" Lowder

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Old 06-29-2012, 03:06 PM   #49
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Are you using the bitterness or aroma additions for FWH?

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Old 06-29-2012, 03:52 PM   #50
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Are you using the bitterness or aroma additions for FWH?
I listed 3 recipes that use different additions for the FWH. My first attempt and one that I think turned out well was my one and only hop addition in a very minimally hopped wheat beer. I have an ESB that I have made many times, in that recipe I swapped the 20 min addition to a FWH. I'll be kegging it soon and I'll report back on my results. Then I have a porter that isn't supposed to have much hop aroma/flavor so I used what would have been part of the 60 min addition as a FWH then the rest as a 30min bittering addition.

My next batch is going to be an IPA. I'm only using 2 different hops, magnum and cascade. I'm adding 1oz each as FWH, then doing a 90min boil with another 1oz of magnum for bittering and 1oz cascade at 20 and 2oz at 5 min.

So I've got 4 batches in the works where I'm trying FWH in different ways. I hope I have a pretty good handle on FWH at that point.
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