First high gravity

Hey new to HBT and was looking for some advice. Making a belgian pumpkin tripple and im trying to find the best time to rack into secondary. I waited about 3 weeks in primary which was yesterday and I thought I was ready to rack but when I opened the lid there was a thick later of damp crust. I thought all the kruasen would have sank by now. And this doesn't look like krausen either. So my question is should I wait longer to rack or rack with the layer still on top?
Thanks in advance Chris

Why do you want to secondary?

Big beer. Alot went into it and would like to see it clear up. Also i have a carboy so why not use it.

There is a pretty good consensus that the benefits from only using a primary outweigh any benefits from moving to secondary/ Of which there are none. Your beer will clear up just fine. As an example, the brown ale I won 2nd place with was noted in the judging sheet as being clear. I have never used a secondary other than when I added fruit. As far as why not use the extra carboy you have, although probably minimal, just using it because it is available is a mistake because anytime you move your beer to another vessel you risk adding oxygen and/or possibly contaminating it. I would leave it in the primary until ready to keg. Make sure you cut an inch or so off the dip tube. After a few pulls it will clear up and within 2 weeks it will be very clear. But to answer your question, you can rack now if the yeast is done fermenting.

jetmac said:

There is a pretty good consensus that the benefits from only using a primary outweigh any benefits from moving to secondary/ Of which there are none. Your beer will clear up just fine. As an example, the brown ale I won 2nd place with was noted in the judging sheet as being clear. I have never used a secondary other than when I added fruit. As far as why not use the extra carboy you have, although probably minimal, just using it because it is available is a mistake because anytime you move your beer to another vessel you risk adding oxygen and/or possibly contaminating it. I would leave it in the primary until ready to keg. Make sure you cut an inch or so off the dip tube. After a few pulls it will clear up and within 2 weeks it will be very clear. But to answer your question, you can rack now if the yeast is done fermenting.

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Of which there are none? I think that is about as good as saying you shouldn't keep just in primary. I've done some full in primary too and I loved them, but I still use secondary from time to time and have noticed differences in two brews that were identical in all but racking to secondary. Of course I find them especially helpful with adding late adjuncts. Nothing detrimental, but differences sure. Contamination is more possible sure, but highly unlikely, with just a little bit of paying attention. The fears espoused in this forum would have done well with the past few hundred years of beer making. All those guys and monks, at least finally they would learn how to make good beer.

Heck fermenting openly you can make great beer.

The things I have noticed personally in my experiences is that keeping in primary longer tends to help with clearing more than secondary (IME).


The beers that I have kept in primary for longer times then moved to secondary have been clearer than using primary alone. (the beers moved quickly to secondary have been less clear)

Many experienced brewers who decry secondaries are many times keggers who do a cold conditioning step that is like unto it.

Either way produces a great beer, and both ways produce a slightly different beer. I noticed this the most last time I brewed a trippel. I did a 10 gal batch. One I kept only in primary, the other transferred. Same batch, slight differences. The one that I left in primary for a good while then transferred ended up with more clarity, than the one fully in primary. The one fully in primary had great clarity as well though.

Moving to Secondary vessels frees up my primary vessels

I have NEVER had a single issue with infection or oxygenation while moving to secondary, you could, but you could have issues with hundreds of other things too.

I can harvest my yeast quicker since I don't have conicals if I move to secondary.

I understand that people with a lot more experience than me keep saying don't use them, don't use them...but why there is no difference, or no positives? There are, obviously, some of them may just be preference. I am not even saying to use them, and I haven't on all lately, but I feel like it is a pendulum swing in here, of people figuring out autolysis isn't an issue, and then running to the other side saying Don't do it, don't do it. It does you no good, your dumb if you do it. The poster above took no bad tone like that, so don't take offense...I'm just sayin.

I've thought about contamination and I attempted to purge whatever container I was using with CO2 from my tank. I'm assuming this lessens the odds of oxidation. And this is a belgian so I will be bottle conditioning these.

My personal preference is only to use a secondary when I'm adding something to the beer that I don't want as part of the primary fermentation. So I racked a porter into secondary with some bourbon to give it that flavor. Or I'm planning on making a peach Brett. beer next month, and once primary fermentation is done, I'll put it in secondary on the fruit to really bring out that flavor. Otherwise, I've found that keeping things in the primary for a bit longer just does a great job of what you would be otherwise getting in secondary, and it's ultimately less work. Win win!

To answer your question. 3 weeks should be plenty of time. Take a gravity reading to be sure and transfer if you wish.

dbhokie said:

Of which there are none? I think that is about as good as saying you shouldn't keep just in primary..

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There is nothing that happens in a secondary that you can't accomplish in a keg other than adding late stuff or fruit.

dbhokie said:

I've done some full in primary too and I loved them, but I still use secondary from time to time and have noticed differences in two brews that were identical in all but racking to secondary. Of course I find them especially helpful with adding late adjuncts. Nothing detrimental, but differences sure. Contamination is more possible sure, but highly unlikely, with just a little bit of paying attention. The fears espoused in this forum would have done well with the past few hundred years of beer making. All those guys and monks, at least finally they would learn how to make good beer..

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But moving it to secondary just because you have a carboy free rather than to the keg now is just useless and exposes your beer to more problems than if you went straight to keg now.

dbhokie said:

The things I have noticed personally in my experiences is that keeping in primary longer tends to help with clearing more than secondary (IME)..

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Well there ya go.

dbhokie said:

The beers that I have kept in primary for longer times then moved to secondary have been clearer than using primary alone. (the beers moved quickly to secondary have been less clear)

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But if you just went straight to the keg and left it there as long as you would a secondary, you would have the same results.

dbhokie said:

Many experienced brewers who decry secondaries are many times keggers who do a cold conditioning step that is like unto it.

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What??

dbhokie said:

Either way produces a great beer, and both ways produce a slightly different beer. I noticed this the most last time I brewed a trippel. I did a 10 gal batch. One I kept only in primary, the other transferred. Same batch, slight differences. The one that I left in primary for a good while then transferred ended up with more clarity, than the one fully in primary. The one fully in primary had great clarity as well though.

Click to expand...

Well then why not just go straight to the keg and save yourself the time and possible problems.

dbhokie said:

Moving to Secondary vessels frees up my primary vessels

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Moving to the keg would keep the primaries and secondaries free.

dbhokie said:

I have NEVER had a single issue with infection or oxygenation while moving to secondary, you could, but you could have issues with hundreds of other things too.

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But why take the chance and go through the trouble of two transfers for no benefits?

dbhokie said:

I understand that people with a lot more experience than me keep saying don't use them, don't use them...but why there is no difference, or no positives? There are, obviously, some of them may just be preference. I am not even saying to use them, and I haven't on all lately, but I feel like it is a pendulum swing in here, of people figuring out autolysis isn't an issue, and then running to the other side saying Don't do it, don't do it. It does you no good, your dumb if you do it. The poster above took no bad tone like that, so don't take offense...I'm just sayin.

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I know I'm not saying anyone is dumb for using a secondary, it's just my opinion you are (or I would) be wasting time and effort moving to a secondary when the benefits don't outweigh the possible problems or causing me to have to clean more items.

Technically there are things that happen in a secondary that don't in a primary. They will contribute to flavors, whether those are preferred or not remains to be seen by the consumer. There are less yeast and less trub, there will be some difference. If you don't think so try what I did and do two side by side split a 10 gall batch of the same boil, and tell me they don't taste different. (I am not saying better! That depends on the consumer, some things people think taste better I think tastes like ass and vice versa). To say there is nothing..well that's a bit over-reaching. To say it isn't harmful and you can get just as good of results, I would say that would be more correct. The exact same, no..better? perhaps according to the consumer.

I don't keg much myself, I tend to do more in bottles atm. I am kegging my next two batches, and if I kegged, I would probably be less likely to use a secondary most of the time.

Saying it from reading though, and from experience are different.

When I said tends to help more with clearing I meant an extended time in primary, IME the same beer does end up clearer if I keep it a long time in primary and then rack it off into secondary. Short time primary long time secondary IME gives me a less clear beer. That was what I experienced when I did the same 10 gal batch split. 1 4 weeks primary, 1 2.5 weeks primary, 1.5 weeks secondary. Same batch same beer, the secondary was clearer (I had given it a fair amount of time in primary though a week week beer I find the opposite to be true, but I haven't done it out of the same batch so I don't have much control on that). They tasted a bit different, I preferred the one that was non-secondaried.

I'm not going straight to Keg now, so moving it out of my larger vessel to my smaller secondary vessel carboys, clears up my larger vessels for use as primaries. I want to end my batches with over 5 gallons generally so I will make 5.5 gallon initial batches (I do a lot of HG) expecting trub and loss from exothermic activity. So straight out of the kettle there is not enough headspace in my smaller carboys.

I tried to iterate that you didn't say that, (people are dumb) I've always found you to be a more respectful person than myself. I tend to be a jackass.

I just think the idea of the risks is exaggerated, and the idea of no difference whatsoever I have found ime with pretty controlled experimentation (same batch split) to be untrue. The issue of whether or not it is positive difference, is another matter altogether. Anything that makes it taste better to you, good difference, worse, bad difference.

I am sorry if I came off in a combative tone, but I'm rather good at that.

I guess it has been a little while since we saw a primary vs. secondary discussion... /OT

I started to brew beer 30 years ago, the recipes didn't include using a secondary. I never knew they existed. The beer was OK. Then in the early 80's, books from Charlie Poopazian, Fix, Noonan and Zymurgy magazine started mentioning secondary fermenters. It seems that within the last decade. Secondary fermenters in the home brew world are going away again. The reason that I see for the decline, is due to book sellers, Zainypalmer Johnnysheff. Whether it's called a secondary fermenter, settling tank or bright tank. It is better for Lager and Pils if they're moved off the dormant yeast and into another vessel. Ale can be kept in the primary. Ale will benefit if it can be cold settled before kegging or bottling. I know a few brewers that only use a primary. They brew high octane, heavy hopped stuff. They dump the wort into a carboy. Cram a blow off tube in the neck and let it go for months. Their philosophy is: If God wants it to go bad, it will go bad. If He wants it to be beer, it will be beer. They brew stuff that will take the paint off a car. When it goes bad, they rename it Belgian sour and drink it. The same guys would drink urinated club soda, if it's hopped up and has 8% alcohol in it. I use Blichman fermenters, a settling vessel, and a plate filter for Lager and Pils. It makes a more consistent and stable product.

Secondary shmecondary.

Ok thanks for all the reading. Any way that top layer ended up being all the boiled up pumpkin that was added. it was way thicker than I thought possable. I DID rack it and I feel that was right for me. It was hard not to scoop up any chunkies. So I can't imagine trying to bottle as was. I did try and purge all the O2 out with my CO2 tank if that helped stop contamination.

After reading this thread I'll be thinking alot more about racking on up coming beers

Ctforte said:

Ok thanks for all the reading. Any way that top layer ended up being all the boiled up pumpkin that was added. it was way thicker than I thought possable. I DID rack it and I feel that was right for me. It was hard not to scoop up any chunkies. So I can't imagine trying to bottle as was. I did try and purge all the O2 out with my CO2 tank if that helped stop contamination.

After reading this thread I'll be thinking alot more about racking on up coming beers

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This would be one of the aforementioned rare occasions in which one should go to secondary and perhaps even tertiary.