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Old 12-02-2012, 05:58 PM   #161
Whalewang
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A brilliant post. Clearly I don't read enough on the forum as the following are new news to me:

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1. (Original recommendation) Don't squeeze the grain bag, it will extract tannins. (Modern day recommendation) It doesn't make any difference at all. Many people doing steeping or BIAB squeeze the living Jesus out of their bags with no ill effects.
Rev.
I've never done BIAB but I have put a paint strainer in my fermenting bucket and dumped the contents of the boil kettle into bucket and then lifted out the paint strainer (effectively trying to get as much wort out of the kettle as possible).

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4. (Original recommendation) Decoction mashing is necessary for a true German beer taste. (Modern day recommendation) So and so has done extensive tests and finds no difference in taste therefore decocting is not necessary and a waste of time.
Rev.
Triple decoctions suck. Are you telling me now that it was a wasted effort!?

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6. (Original recommendation) As according to the bottle label it says to use one tablet of Whirlfloc at 15 minutes near the end of boil. (Modern day recommendation) It's been written online that people have spoken with the actual manufacturer and they say one tablet is good for up to 12 gallons so only half a tablet is needed and it's most effective at the last 5 minutes of the boil.
Rev.
I forgot about using it at 5 minute rather 15. Thanks for the reminder.

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9. (Original recommendation) After adding your sparge water allow ten minutes for the grain bed to set. (Modern day recommendation) Don't waste the time, vorlaufing sets the grain bed so start vorlaufing immediately.
Rev.
This seems kind of intuitive but I still (used) to wait.

Areas of interest for me coming out of this thread:
-Boil time lengths (what's the impact of 60 vs 120 minute boils)
-Mashing time length (can I cut this time down from 60 min? I don't have an iodine kit but I think I've read you can start sparging as soon as your wort becomes clear which I assume would almost always be less then 60 minutes.)
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Old 12-02-2012, 08:26 PM   #162
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@whalewang - thank you for your positive comment on the thread! In regard to your decoction question - no not at all am I saying it's pointless, I was referencing a number of online posts I've read where people have done tests and have said they don't see a difference. Speaking on a scientific standpoint I can't see how boiling grains wouldn't make any difference but that is the point of this thread :-)


Rev.

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Old 12-03-2012, 02:49 AM   #163
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Speaking on a scientific standpoint I can't see how boiling grains wouldn't make any difference but that is the point of this thread :-)


Rev.
Just wondering how what you see (in this particular example if you would like) is scientific. Please let me know.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:09 AM   #164
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Just wondering how what you see (in this particular example if you would like) is scientific. Please let me know.
I never said I "see" anything in regard to this topic as scientific, again... hence the whole point of this thread. If everything in brewing were 100% scientific the methods and opinions wouldn't be changing so wildly. So I'm not sure what you're getting at. All I can say is from having done several double decoction hefeweizens I've noticed a definite increase in efficiency and also a better tasting beer. The "better tasting" part I can describe is slightly fuller/maltier/warmer tasting beer.


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Old 12-03-2012, 03:18 AM   #165
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I never said I "see" anything in regard to this topic as scientific, again... hence the whole point of this thread. If everything in brewing were 100% scientific the methods and opinions wouldn't be changing so wildly. So I'm not sure what you're getting at. All I can say is from having done several double decoction hefeweizens I've noticed a definite increase in efficiency and also a better tasting beer. The "better tasting" part I can describe is slightly fuller/maltier/warmer tasting beer.


Rev.
Well, if you really want to know what I'm getting at it is this. You're hitting on the 'wild changes' of the last thirty years that is imparted by amateurs within the hobby community.

But I would be more careful with mixing that with a vigorous method spanning a tradition of centuries. There's a reason for these methods, even if a home brewer cannot scientifically validate it after a couple of trials.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:45 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev2010 View Post
I never said I "see" anything in regard to this topic as scientific, again... hence the whole point of this thread. If everything in brewing were 100% scientific the methods and opinions wouldn't be changing so wildly. So I'm not sure what you're getting at. All I can say is from having done several double decoction hefeweizens I've noticed a definite increase in efficiency and also a better tasting beer. The "better tasting" part I can describe is slightly fuller/maltier/warmer tasting beer.


Rev.
I feel as though if we did apply scientific rigor to our processes, things actually would change faster because we'd have more to base our opinions on than we currently do.

I admit I was a bit confused by the way you used the phrase 'scientific standpoint', but kinda just brushed it off.
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Old 12-03-2012, 12:49 PM   #167
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By scientific standpoint I mean if one double decocts there would be physical differences between that beer and one that is not decocted. People say decoction creates melanoidins for example. So, scientifically there should be some form of difference no? And if so then it's confusing to see a number of people do compares and not tell any difference. That's what I was getting at using the term scientific standpoint - meaning the physical changes or differences that would be present in a decocted vs non decocted beer.


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Old 12-03-2012, 02:35 PM   #168
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I think what iambeer is saying is that several people on a message board doing comparisons of decocted vs. non-decocted beers and claiming they can't tell a difference doesn't necessarily qualify as a scientifically rigorous study. It could, maybe...but you have no information on how well-controlled their comparisons were (i.e. rigorous control of variables), if they even know how to do the decoction correctly, and if their palates are sensitive enough to discern any differences that did arise, amongst a number of other uncertainties.

Its just important to draw a distinction between the scientific peer review process of rigorous, well-characterized experiments and the comparisons that tend to be discussed on a message board such as this, which tend to be (but are not always) more anecdotal than scientifically rigorous. I'm not taking anything away from this board, because it is a wonderful source of information, you just have to personally gauge how much confidence to put in certain statements/conclusions/etc. based on the fact that it is what it is - a public forum on the internet where anyone can discuss their experience with homebrewing.

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Old 12-03-2012, 03:02 PM   #169
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Quote:
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I think what iambeer is saying is that several people on a message board doing comparisons of decocted vs. non-decocted beers and claiming they can't tell a difference doesn't necessarily qualify as a scientifically rigorous study.
I never said it was scientific I said there has to be some form of difference scientifically due to the different process and treatment of the grains/mash in a decocted beer vs. a single infusion. Though, you then have those that say they can't tell any difference. That's all, nothing more nothing less.


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Old 12-03-2012, 03:28 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev2010 View Post
By scientific standpoint I mean if one double decocts there would be physical differences between that beer and one that is not decocted. People say decoction creates melanoidins for example. So, scientifically there should be some form of difference no? And if so then it's confusing to see a number of people do compares and not tell any difference. That's what I was getting at using the term scientific standpoint - meaning the physical changes or differences that would be present in a decocted vs non decocted beer.


Rev.
Scientifically, you would quantify the difference, not assume that it's true. You always start with a null hypothesis.
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