Dogfish Head on Brewmasters: 2 Weeks to Ship??

Did anyone else see that episode of that new show on Discovery, Brewmasters, that profiled the Dogfish Head Brewery? They said that a 5% ABV batch goes from brew day to bottling to out the door in 2 weeks.

My question to the masters out there: what do they know that we don't??

pro brewers can ferment at higher temperatures with no off flavors due to the size and volume of their conical fermenters. The increased pressure on the yeast suppresses ester production. The higher fermentation temps allow fermentation to finish out faster than it takes us to do a batch at 65-68.

Also most big breweries filter and force carb in brite tanks using carbonation stones. They can take a beer from the fermenter to crystal clear and carb'd in hours.

Well, they aren't bottle conditioning/carbing, so that takes out 2-3 weeks right there.

Plus, it's not uncommon for session beers to be finished fermenting in 2 weeks, so it's certainly doable.

I watched it too (great show!), and I think they said it was 2 weeks to bottle, but had mentioned as well that they needed 2 weeks conditioning. Perhaps it is 2 weeks to bottle and out the door, but that then goes to the distribution center, where it takes that 2 weeks before it is all delivered.

Two weeks to ship doesn't seem that tight. 1 week primary. 1 week secondary. Force carb at bottling directly to shipping.

I'm also not going to hold the show to high scientific expectations. Sam is known for his marketing, not well balanced perfect beers.

Stone says the same thing if you take the brewery tour. Something like 10 days for most brews that they make. Like Strat said, they have equipment that lets them get a finished product out much faster.

This is one of the old homebrewing myths that is dying but s l o w l y dying. It's been around forever but finally in the last 4-7 years the majority homebrewers are now taking the correct steps that make brewday to drinking day more correct times.

Two weeks to bottle for a 5% ale isn't shocking by ANY means. In fact I'm guessing the HUGE majority of 5% ales made all over the world in every commercial brewery have the same schedule +/- 2 days. Also, the reason IS NOT because pro brewers are ferementing at higher temperatures. They are fermenting at the same temperatures we are. For example, I'm sure that nearly every single standard ale in the country that is being made with California Ale yeast is being fermented at 66-69F. Yes, there will be expections, but few and far between. In fact, commercial breweries are the ones who helped everyone figure out what those ideal temperatures should be. When you brew the same batch of beer day after day they quickly figure out the magic temperature zone for a paticular yeast strain to give the best flavor profile.

Some of the reasons homebrewers are always shocked when they hear how fast commericial breweries get to bottle:

1. Commercial breweries pitch the correct amount of yeast. For decades and still to this day (some) homebrewers would/will SEVERLY underpitch their beer. I can remember for years how we would pitch a 5g sachette of dry yeast into 5 gallons of beer, regardless of OG, without rehydrating the yeast and not oxygenating or just shaking the carboy. When you underpitch, it takes longer.

2. Another big reason was for about two decades in homebrewing the 1-2-3 week rule was preached. Of course, now we (or most) know that the rule is, beer finishes fermenting, put in keg, cool, carb and drink. Of course, we typically skip the clarification step but commercial breweries do this as they are transferring or less commonly just use gelatin for 1-2 days.

3. Homebrewers used to think you needed a secondary.

4. Homebrewers now realize how important temperature control is during fermentation. For years we would find some beers improve with a lot of aging. At the time we didn't realize that in a lot of these cases we were just giving time for crazy off flavors to be minimized because we didn't control our fermentation temperature. Everything from fermenting way too hot (72F+) or allowing crazy up and down swings instead of keeping it steady or slight rising. Now we realize that with the correct amount of yeast and temperature control, these crazy off flavors are avoided.

5. Not all people realize that commercial breweries can filter, carbonate and fill in one day.

If you do a standard 1.052 ale with the correct amount of standard yeast and fermentation isn't finished in 8-10 days, you mostly likely have a process problem. In a commercial brewery, if it takes 10 days, that gives them 4 days to get it from the ferementor to a truck. Psssh, no problem.

I've heard several times (however I don't know if it is true) that Budweiser is 28 days from brewday to truck. That's probably the most perfectly brewed lager in the world. Their quality control is near perfection and naturally their flavor profile is nearly perfectly repeated and flawless. They are always looked up to by commercial breweries throughout the world. And they DO NOT ferment hot. In fact I'd be willing to bet they ferment colder than the vast majority of homebrewers. (~43F - 47F would be my guess). And I believe it's nearly 5% as well.

My last beer was a great beer very clean tasting and crystal clear.

9 days in primary
5 days secondary (dry hop)
2 days cold crash with gelatine
keg and force carb
OG 1.045
FG 1.010
ABV 4.7%

During the tour of DFH earlier this year I had intended to ask what their grain to glass time was but forgot. I emailed them when I got back and was their reply stated they average 21 days.

Pretty decent show giving me something to do at 10pm on a Sunday night. Also another great excuse to drink some homebrew on a Sunday night. I'll like to see how much this and Brewingtv will have in common, although I think that Brewingtv wil be geared more to the homebrewer than Brewmasters, but I think it will help give homebrewers a better place on the map. Is the next episode also about Dogfish Head? I've been reading Sam's book on Dogfish Head and you can tell that between that, Brewmasters, and Beer Wars that he really understands small business success and he's someone I'd like to sit down with and have a pint and talk with.

It's got nothing to do with equipment and batch size. I use better bottles and 5 gallon batches and my 1.050 ales ferment in 3 days and can win awards at 14. It's about finishing the fermentation in a reasonable amount of time through large pitches of healthy yeast, producing beer that is free of flaws that need to "age" out, etc.

Plenty of homebrewers can do the same schedule.

Listen to Can You Brew It sometime. Their beers are typically about two weeks old when they taste them.

I did a tour of Founders they said 18 days from grain to glass.

Morning_Dew said:

Also, the reason IS NOT because pro brewers are ferementing at higher temperatures. They are fermenting at the same temperatures we are. For example, I'm sure that nearly every single standard ale in the country that is being made with California Ale yeast is being fermented at 66-69F. Yes, there will be expections, but few and far between. In fact, commercial breweries are the ones who helped everyone figure out what those ideal temperatures should be. When you brew the same batch of beer day after day they quickly figure out the magic temperature zone for a paticular yeast strain to give the best flavor profile.

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The increased hydrostatic pressure created by the large volumes of commercial fermenters does in fact allow them to ferment at higher temperatures than a homebrew does with similar if not identical flavor results. When the yeast are in a high-pressure environment, ester production is reduced and they are able to ferment faster and as clean as they would at a lower temp and lower hydrostatic pressure. I'm not saying ALL commercial breweries do this, but I have listened to enough interviewers with head brewers at commercial craft breweries on Can You Brew It to hear a large percentage of the brewers themselves list their fermentation temperature at 70-72F, even though the temperature required to clone the beer on a home brew scale is in the 67-68F range.

I agree pitching the right amount of yeast and temp control. I brewed Edwort Haus Pale Ale the beginning of this month and it went from grain to glass in 2 weeks fermented in low 60s, rehydrated 1 packet of notty

Is Brewingtv a show or network? If a sow what channel has it?

strat_thru_marshall said:

The increased hydrostatic pressure created by the large volumes of commercial fermenters does in fact allow them to ferment at higher temperatures than a homebrew does with similar if not identical flavor results. When the yeast are in a high-pressure environment, ester production is reduced and they are able to ferment faster and as clean as they would at a lower temp and lower hydrostatic pressure. I'm not saying ALL commercial breweries do this, but I have listened to enough interviewers with head brewers at commercial craft breweries on Can You Brew It to hear a large percentage of the brewers themselves list their fermentation temperature at 70-72F, even though the temperature required to clone the beer on a home brew scale is in the 67-68F range.

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More correctly hydrostatic pressure retards yeast activity to include rate of fermentation.

Simple business economics would say that the commercial guys are going to push for a shorter cycle. Fewer "production" days = more batches per year = more dinero from same equipment set = higher ROI. The specific beer style makes a difference (lagers are going to take a bit longer), but it makes sense to push product out as fast you can.

ashort33 said:

Simple business economics would say that the commercial guys are going to push for a shorter cycle. Fewer "production" days = more batches per year = more dinero from same equipment set = higher ROI. The specific beer style makes a difference (lagers are going to take a bit longer), but it makes sense to push product out as fast you can.

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This is spot on (with the understanding that their processes and equipment are optimized for the short cycle).

For example, if you have an 11 day cycle, you'll get 33-34 batches per year. If you have a 10 day cycle, you're looking at 36. If that one day difference doesn't change the flavor of the product, you'd be foolish to not take two additional batches of revenue.

thats the norm I run. I primary for 1 week, secondary for one week, then keg and force carb for a day or 2 and its ready to drink

Ok ok, hold the phones.

Has this discussion happened already, or am I missing something? From my time here, I've discerned (and I'd venture to say that most others have, too) that Homebrewtalk's overarching narrative is highly supportive of aging beer. Hell, I get my homebrewing information from a number of different sources, and virtually all of them heavily advocate giving beer time to mature. My impression has been that this isn't a theory, but an accepted fact of brewing; I've always assumed that the big breweries can move faster due to some combination of equipment and batch size. Personally, I even noticed some significant positive changes in my first couple beers upon letting them age, and thus my modus operandi became to not even taste them until after aging.

But if that's not true, then why are the vast majority of us wasting our time? Is there a discussion to be had here, or is the aging theory really just some vestigial nonsense?

*Waits for Revvy's rebuttal*

In my humble opinion, temp control, yeast cell count and filtering is the biggest difference between commercial and homebrew process.

Pitch enough yeast, hold then ramp temp, filter, carb, keg. Of all these things, filtering is the big pain in the ass that most homebrewers don't want to mess with.

Yes, you can have your homebrew ready to drink in 2 weeks easily if you pitch right, temp control right, and especially with a filter. Here's a sticky thread from General Techniques:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/aging-beer-facts-myths-discussion-84005/

When beer is made "correctly" in the first place it will change with age. If it's flawed then it will improve with age (generally).

billf2112 said:

Is Brewingtv a show or network? If a sow what channel has it?

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Its put on by guys from Northern Brewer. They release one episode on the internet every other Friday. Just google brewing tv and you'll find it. They have quite a few episodes out so grab a 12 pack and a few hours and you can catch up.

I have to agree that in my limited experience filtering seems to be the single biggest difference between homebrewing and commercial brewing.

logan3825 said:

I have to agree that in my limited experience filtering seems to be the single biggest difference between homebrewing and commercial brewing.

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I disagree. Rogue doesn't filter several of their beers (and used to fill none of them). Russian River doesn't filtered anything. Both of these breweries turn around just as fast as any other and, IMO, both represent the highest level of quality.

ZehBaron said:

Ok ok, hold the phones.

Has this discussion happened already, or am I missing something? From my time here, I've discerned (and I'd venture to say that most others have, too) that Homebrewtalk's overarching narrative is highly supportive of aging beer. Hell, I get my homebrewing information from a number of different sources, and virtually all of them heavily advocate giving beer time to mature. My impression has been that this isn't a theory, but an accepted fact of brewing; I've always assumed that the big breweries can move faster due to some combination of equipment and batch size. Personally, I even noticed some significant positive changes in my first couple beers upon letting them age, and thus my modus operandi became to not even taste them until after aging.

But if that's not true, then why are the vast majority of us wasting our time? Is there a discussion to be had here, or is the aging theory really just some vestigial nonsense?

*Waits for Revvy's rebuttal*

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I would say that there is a larger majority of commericial beer that is green when it first comes out, especially higher gravity ales. DFH made an imp stout to blend w/ the Tej, and everyone knows that even though the stout was done fermenting that given more time to age it would better than just bottling right away. I guess when you mass produce beer, people dont buy it and let it age for another 3 months before they drink it, so it doesnt really matter b/c its decent as the point of consumption.

Right now I'm drinking a BM Centennial Blonde that was brewed on 9 Nov. It came out a little strong at 1.049 but 2 weeks from grain to glass and it's good.

BM himself said that particular beer is just fine if you drink it young.

BM's Blonde is definitely worth the brew.

Justibone said:

BM himself said that particular beer is just fine if you drink it young.

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Yeah which is why I picked it as a last minute beer for Thanksgiving. Even coming up 10 points high due to too little sparge water, it's still good in just 2 weeks.

I will keep this recipe for last minute beer.

a local micro pitches one barrel of slurry per batch (not exactly sure of batch size, but it's not a very small brewery) and primary fermentation is measured in hours (24-36 or something like that)

I wonder how many cells that is... slurry can have varying levels of compactness.

I'm guessing they had the imperial stout already brewed and the timeline was for the tej. I don't see an Imperial Stout finishing that quickly even in a commercial setting.

I've watched the second episode now, and to Dogfish there's no minute like the last minute.

ZehBaron said:

Ok ok, hold the phones.

Has this discussion happened already, or am I missing something? From my time here, I've discerned (and I'd venture to say that most others have, too) that Homebrewtalk's overarching narrative is highly supportive of aging beer. Hell, I get my homebrewing information from a number of different sources, and virtually all of them heavily advocate giving beer time to mature. My impression has been that this isn't a theory, but an accepted fact of brewing; I've always assumed that the big breweries can move faster due to some combination of equipment and batch size. Personally, I even noticed some significant positive changes in my first couple beers upon letting them age, and thus my modus operandi became to not even taste them until after aging.

But if that's not true, then why are the vast majority of us wasting our time? Is there a discussion to be had here, or is the aging theory really just some vestigial nonsense?

*Waits for Revvy's rebuttal*

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This is something that is typically preached to beginners because no one is going to brew the perfect batch on their first try. Most flaws age out eventually, so even if your first batch isn't very good initially, chances are it will improve greatly with age.

Once you gain some experience and start treating your yeast right (pitching enough yeast at the correct temp, keeping fermentation at the correct temp) then your turn around time is shortened quite a bit. I can have a standard gravity ale (below 1.060 OG) drinkable in 2 weeks if I keg and force carb. I can have that same ale drinkable in 4 weeks if I bottle carb.

I just did a Barley wine in 3 weeks. 1.085 OG down to 1.020 for 2 straight days, (16 days total) Secondary for 3 days, keg and carb. One of the best BWs I have made to date.

My first BW, I left it in the bucket for a month, now I know there was no need. Once the FG arrives, it arrives. I find leaving it after that give a yeasty/bread tinge on the tounge.

I will see how my fermentation is improved with my next batch. I have been washing yeast and plan on a 1L starter for my next 5 gal batch.

BrookdaleBrew said:

This is something that is typically preached to beginners because no one is going to brew the perfect batch on their first try. Most flaws age out eventually, so even if your first batch isn't very good initially, chances are it will improve greatly with age.

Once you gain some experience and start treating your yeast right (pitching enough yeast at the correct temp, keeping fermentation at the correct temp) then your turn around time is shortened quite a bit. I can have a standard gravity ale (below 1.060 OG) drinkable in 2 weeks if I keg and force carb. I can have that same ale drinkable in 4 weeks if I bottle carb.

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The other thing I'm wondering is what we're considering "drinkable" vs "as good as it gets". I know I've had batches that were good the first time I tried it, but still got better by the last bottle. Even on a commercial scale a lot of big beers get shipped out young, and aren't nearly as good as they can get with a little aging.

My thought is that yes, you can make an average strength beer that is easily drinkable in a matter of weeks with good procedure, but that doesn't mean it won't benefit from some aging either.

By "drinkable" I mean no detectable flaws. All beers will mature and change over time. "Better" is a subjective term.

One thing I've noticed on their website is, for some of the very high ABV beers (I think maybe it was Red & White but it could have been Blue & Black or something else entirely); Sam recommends you try one right away but then put one back and 'cellar' it for a year or two. (Obviously he wants you to buy more then 1!)
I wish I had done that for a couple of those - really liked the Red & White. Fort I was not prepared for but think I'd like it better the 2nd go around. Alot of the high ABV (+15%) taste too much like ethanol for my palate personally.