Dme is pure evil

the stuff is 100% devil-powder. ground up demon seed. pain dust.

so it's 2 am on a friday night and it's occurred to me that i need to start my starter for sunday's batch. in a misguided quest for efficiency, i decide to try boiling the DME directly in the erlenmeyer flask, instead of my usual method of doing it in a small pot then transferring to the flask. last time i try that. HOW THE HELL ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO GET THE DME THROUGH THE NARROW NECK OF THE FLASK WITHOUT MAKING A MESS AND/OR HAVING IT STICK TO EVERYTHING?!?

i ended up with DME everywhere. the humidity in the air was enough to make it clump together. it stuck to the insides of the flask's neck so i had to force it in, and then it wouldn't dissolve. i have no idea what my starter's OG was: as i lost a bunch of DME then had to eye-ball how much to replace. i'm not worried about it, i know i'm close, but what's the point of measuring the stuff (and have it stick to the scale!) only to lose a large quantity during transfer. ugh.

i'm definitely seeing the value in canning/preserving wort for starter - only have to go through this once.

</rant>

I drop mine in through a funnel.

I put the water in the flask, roll up a piece of paper to make a funnel, pour the DME in quickly, hand over the top and shake to mix. Put it on the stove to boil. Not difficult at all.

well y'all be smarter than me. i was afraid that the stuff was going to stick to the funnel - why not? it's sticking to everything else.

i considered converting to dry yeast last night :cross:

Sounds like operator error to me!

sweetcell said:

well y'all be smarter than me. i was afraid that the stuff was going to stick to the funnel - why not? it's sticking to everything else.

i considered converting to dry yeast last night :cross:

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That is why I use rolled up paper. I can make thhe opening as big as the mouth of the flask. A quick pour and you are done. If any sticks to the paper, just throw it away.

sweetcell said:

i considered converting to dry yeast last night :cross:

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I use dry *any* time I can. I hate messing with starters, and always feel like I'm not making a big enough starter since I only have a 2L flask and brew 10 gallon batches. So if the beer uses a strain that has a quality dry version, I use dry. Belgians & saisons are pretty much the only exception.

BTW, I don't like boiling in the flask anyway. I have a nice scar on my hand next to my thumb from a major burn when I tried doing that back in 2007...

I just use my 8qt stainless pot for starters. I make enough for either my 2L or 3L flask that way. I'm too concerned about breaking the flask on the stove to boil mine that way.

How many that boil in the flask also use fermcap before it hits a boil? I use it in mine so that I prevent issues, even with the pot.

bluemoose said:

Sounds like operator error to me!

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^^

practice makes perfect as well as with the techniques you use

...if you ask me id rather use devil powder than liquid sludge LME

sweetcell said:

doing it in a small pot then transferring to the flask

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You had it right before. Just mix it with water, and pour it in your flask before boiling. Just don't ever try that with pellet hops, when dry hopping them in a carboy they expand like foam insulation

Great post!

I have done the exact thing! The paper funnel is the way to go! KISS & do it all in the Erlenmeyer flask.

The starter makes a HUGE difference. The DIY stir plate makes a HUGE difference.

Experience is a great teacher. Keep it up!

Man, that sure looks like it hurt for quite some time!! Wow.

bwarbiany said:

I use dry *any* time I can. I hate messing with starters, and always feel like I'm not making a big enough starter since I only have a 2L flask and brew 10 gallon batches. So if the beer uses a strain that has a quality dry version, I use dry. Belgians & saisons are pretty much the only exception.

BTW, I don't like boiling in the flask anyway. I have a nice scar on my hand next to my thumb from a major burn when I tried doing that back in 2007...

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bwarbiany said:

I use dry *any* time I can. I hate messing with starters, and always feel like I'm not making a big enough starter since I only have a 2L flask and brew 10 gallon batches. So if the beer uses a strain that has a quality dry version, I use dry. Belgians & saisons are pretty much the only exception.

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yup, it's for a belgian. in a few hours i'll be firing up the pots for a breakfast stout and a smash, and they'll both be dry yeast.

i only use liquid for belgians... fortunately/unfortunately belgians are over half of what i brew :cross:

NochEineMassBitte said:

I drop mine in through a funnel.

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I add the DME first, and since it's dry (as is the funnel and flask) it just pours right in. Then I seal up the DME, put it back in the ziploc (so it's double sealed) and then add the water. It's easy to shake up the flask to mix it, and drop in the stir bar to sanitize it. I then boil it right in the flask, but I am very cautious to not boil over! I use a bit of Fermcap-S in the starter so it doesn't boil over and I wear an oven mitt at all times. It comes to a boil fast, and then I only boil it a couple of minutes, then turn off the heat and put it in an ice bath.

That burn looks painful! Thanks for the reminder to be careful.

I hate DME.

I'm gonna let a little secret slip: I use table sugar, yeast nutrients, and a dash of olive oil for every starter. Don't knock it till you try it folks.

passedpawn said:

I hate DME.

I'm gonna let a little secret slip: I use table sugar, yeast nutrients, and a dash of olive oil for every starter. Don't knock it till you try it folks.

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Care to share your recipe !?!

Atleast you didnt forget to put your stir bar in at the beginning and decide to just drop it in during the boil. Trust me that makes a big mess i spent half an hour scraping all the burnt crap off my glass stove top with a razor blade.

I have lately been boiling in a pot then putting it in the flask on the stirplate. When boiling in the flask I warm up the water, take the flask off the heat and wait until the steam stops then add the DME. I then return the flask to the heat to boil it.

Buy a 99 cent funnel and cut the hole bigger with a box blade, add a little water, and then the dme and then rinse the funnel and flask neck with water.

remthewanderer said:

Care to share your recipe !?!

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Not really. My spider senses tell me this is a topic that would bring the wrath. I'm just proposing you might experiment yourself

Johnnyhitch1 said:

...if you ask me id rather use devil powder than liquid sludge LME

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LME is the devil's snot.

to everyone in this thread who said "DME is no big deal", "operator error", "practice makes perfect", etc - GO EFF YOURSELVES. you obviously don't live in the swamp that is the national capital region. the humidity here ensures that DME clumps together while still inside the bag. you can't even get to it before it becomes the world's stickiest goo. all those suggestions about using a funnel ARE USELESS if you can't get the damn stuff out of the bag. the DME at the bottom of the bag is nice and powdery, unfortunately it's blocked by a ring of gunk that was created by contact between DME near the opening and ambient humidity. said gunk forms an air-tight seal between the still-powdery DME and the outside world.

yes, i'm pissed off at DME right now. again

I'm with you man. I measured out some dme on a paper plate for a starter the other day. In the time it took to seal up the bag it had formed a layer of satin skin surrounding the small mound. I go to pour it off the plate and it only comes out of the cracks in the thick skin that has formed like a dme pimple. Then some of the skin still remains and there is also a nice thick layer of dme quickly turning into an evil version of silly putty on the bottom. A knife couldn't get it off because the dme had rendered the once sharp chefs knife no longer sharp but dull, sticky and useless. Basically the knife had become a pry bar.

Dme's never ending goal is to turn into lme and anger everyone coming in contact with it.

sweetcell said:

to everyone in this thread who said "DME is no big deal", "operator error", "practice makes perfect", etc - GO EFF YOURSELVES. you obviously don't live in the swamp that is the national capital region. the humidity here ensures that DME clumps together while still inside the bag. you can't even get to it before it becomes the world's stickiest goo. all those suggestions about using a funnel ARE USELESS if you can't get the damn stuff out of the bag. the DME at the bottom of the bag is nice and powdery, unfortunately it's blocked by a ring of gunk that was created by contact between DME near the opening and ambient humidity. said gunk forms an air-tight seal between the still-powdery DME and the outside world.

yes, i'm pissed off at DME right now. again

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In that case, I think the name of your thread should been "Maryland Sucks". I visited there most summers for a good part of my youth and the humidity is unbelievable for a CA boy. It's every bit as bad as standing in a bathroom with the shower on hot.

passedpawn said:

I hate DME.

I'm gonna let a little secret slip: I use table sugar, yeast nutrients, and a dash of olive oil for every starter. Don't knock it till you try it folks.

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You, my friend, are a gentleman and a scholar. I have been thinking about this but just needed the nudge.

bwarbiany said:

BTW, I don't like boiling in the flask anyway. I have a nice scar on my hand next to my thumb from a major burn when I tried doing that back in 2007...

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How did you burn yourself like that? Boiling in the flask is the best method, but safety has to always be kept in mind, so it'd be a good idea to let people know so they can learn from your mistakes.

Golddiggie said:

I just use my 8qt stainless pot for starters. I make enough for either my 2L or 3L flask that way. I'm too concerned about breaking the flask on the stove to boil mine that way.

How many that boil in the flask also use fermcap before it hits a boil? I use it in mine so that I prevent issues, even with the pot.

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I always use Fermcap-S any time I boil wort, whether it's for a 2 liter starter or a 10 gallon batch. Even a 5 gallon batch in my 20 gallon Blichmann kettle gets the Fermcap... I've had boilovers even when the wort only takes up ¼ of the kettle

Boilovers are even easier in a flask, and they'll volcano in an instant. I've had such boilovers in my flasks even with the recommended amount of Fermcap, so starters get a big dose! In fact, I easily use more in a starter than for a whole batch that's *50 times the size*!

sweetcell said:

to everyone in this thread who said "DME is no big deal", "operator error", "practice makes perfect", etc - GO EFF YOURSELVES. you obviously don't live in the swamp that is the national capital region. the humidity here ensures that DME clumps together while still inside the bag. you can't even get to it before it becomes the world's stickiest goo. all those suggestions about using a funnel ARE USELESS if you can't get the damn stuff out of the bag. the DME at the bottom of the bag is nice and powdery, unfortunately it's blocked by a ring of gunk that was created by contact between DME near the opening and ambient humidity. said gunk forms an air-tight seal between the still-powdery DME and the outside world.

yes, i'm pissed off at DME right now. again

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Don't listen to them, it's definitely a one-D ten-T error.

It's often near 100% RH here in the summer, but I've never had that problem. Yes, it gets sticky, but it shouldn't be too sticky to get out of the bag unless the bag has been previously opened and either allowed to get sticky, or not sealed back up properly (ie completely airtight).

It's interesting how many people have said they roll up paper for a funnel. I've always done the same because it can be "modified" if the hole starts to get plugged, whereas with a plastic funnel, I had to constantly use a pencil to push it through the hole.

In the end, it ain't that difficult:

DME goes in first, and then water done in such a way to get all the DME stuck to the side of the neck as it goes in. DME dissolves more easily in cold water. I swirl it until it's all dissolved, and then add the stirbar and generous amounts of yeast nutrient and Fermcap-S. Start heating the flask and keep it on for 10 minutes of boiling time. With a few minutes left, I put the foam stopper in the neck of the flask... the steam goes right through it, sanitizing the stopper without building up pressure in the flask.

Remove it directly to an icebath in my sink, and once it's at pitching temp, I take the yeast out of the fridge, lift up the stopper, pitch the cold yeast straight in (this is actually better than letting the yeast warm up to around pitch temp... true story), put the stopper back in, and set it up on my stirplate...

...and the rest depends on whether I want to decant (and again, pitch it into the batch at fridge temps), or to "hit the ground running" by pitching at high krausen.

Emjay, You're the second person I've heard mention adding refrigerated temp yeast to cooled wort. Where did you learn about this?

bottlebomber said:

You, my friend, are a gentleman and a scholar. I have been thinking about this but just needed the nudge.

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Danger, Will Robinson!

If you decide to actually go that route, approach it scientifically and make sure your experiments thoroughly cover the circumstances your yeast will actually cover (eg, testing all the way to the 4th generation if you expect to use your yeast to 4 generations). And multiple times, of course. I did, and while it doesn't instantly lose the ability to ferment maltose as if some magical switch has suddenly been flipped, its health and performance was usually inferior (and NEVER superior) to the controls, and the difference became more pronounced with each subsequent generation.

Obviously, this is something you want to believe, so I'm not going to tell you not to try it, but I'm confident that if you test it properly, you'll make the same conclusions yourself. Make sure you have controls, as you'll only be able to judge it by comparison... far too many people here "test" methods they want to believe in, and then consider it a success when the method "works". Of course you'll still end up with beer, and often even very good beer, but the question is whether or not it's BETTER beer. And in the case of using table sugar for starters, my results were a resounding "no", but if I didn't have the controls for comparison, I would only have been able to conclude that it "works" - and it certainly does, most of the time - but you have to decide whether that's good enough for you. For me, it's not. Even if DME for a starter greatly increased the overall cost per batch compared to using sucrose (and really, it doesn't), I just wouldn't be able to justify the differences that I observed.

What I'm trying to say, is that confirmation bias is a *****. A seductress, even. If you end up determining that sucrose is best for you, then that's fine. I'm just encouraging you to test it out properly, so that you don't end up thinking it's a good idea just because you really want it to be a good idea, a trap I've seen countless brewers fall into.

I make the hugest messes and burn myself half the time also whenever I try to boil DME in my 2L flask directly. So I bought a 12 pack of 1 quart mason jars from the grocery store and just boil up 2 gallons or so worth of starter wort at a time in my 3 gallon stockpot and then can the starter wort in the mason jars (which I sanitize with starsan). It's not the boil it all to hell and gone method of traditional canning, but starsan hasn't done me wrong so far.

No more boiling in the flask this way. just sanitize the flask, dump in 1 or 2 jars worth of starter wort as needed and pitch the vial.

Dan said:

Emjay, You're the second person I've heard mention adding refrigerated temp yeast to cooled wort. Where did you learn about this?

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Honestly, I don't recall. I'd have to dig really deep into my notes, as I've been doing it for a while now. But it is certainly supported by the science.

When you refrigerate yeast, it starts building up glycogen reserves as it cools down. When you take the yeast out of the fridge and let it warm up, it starts consuming he glycogen; by the time it's at pitching temp and pitched into wort, they'll be all used up. Pitching it cold allows it to use the glycogen reserves optimally.

So-called "thermal shock" just isn't an issue in this particular "direction"... that is, cold yeast into a warmer environment. It's more of an issue when introducing warmer yeast into a colder environment. Many brewers know from experience that sudden temperature drops can stall a yeast, even if it happens to be at a temperature that it can usually ferment at. There's really no reason to suggest that suddenly *warming* yeast up to within its optimal range would cause similar issues.

Thanks Emjay!

The OP sounds somewhat like my disaster of adding dextrose to apple juice bottles to make a batch of apfelwein. I forgot I didn't have a funnel before I started and tried making a makeshift one using aluminum foil. The entire kitchen somehow had a coating of corn sugar after I was done.

Speaking of which, I just remembered I still don't have a funnel, so I just ordered one from Amazon.

anything sticking to the neck of the flask will drip down to the bottom while it is boiling because of the condensation from boiling. I add one drop of fermcap-s and no more boil overs!

I mix it up in a 2L measuring cup, then pour into the flask to boil on the stove (Fermcap is key). Occasionally I've boiled the starter in a large pot then poured it into the sanitized flask, which is probably safer and eliminates the need for Fermcap.