Competition Frustrations

So I have been entering compeitions in order to get some critical feedback and improve my brewing. And I really have been learning a lot. I have got some great feedback from the judges. But getting low scores is still frustrating even if you are learning a lot.

So my question is this :
How long had you been brewing before you started to get good scores (35 - 40 range)
How long had you been brewing before you placed?

Don't get frustrated! The biggest thing is to learn and improve.

A lot depends on how big the comp is and what judges you get. Also, how many beers are in the category. I've seen the same beer score great in one comp and not so great in another.

Many people score well and place their first competition. Others may never medal. As homebrewing has become more and more popular, it's getting harder to win.

Rather than focusing on your win/loss, focus on the areas to improve and keep trying.

If you want to place, don't brew ipa's. Or Belgians or stouts or American ales. Brew pretty much any lager, and you'll be a competition hero (if you enter the right ones, and your beers aren't diacetyl bombs).

Are you brewing beers to win awards, or because you enjoy brewing and drinking your own beer????

I have only entered one competition just recently and it was only my 3rd batch or so and it scored a 33. I got a lot of good feedback though.

CraigKing said:

Are you brewing beers to win awards, or because you enjoy brewing and drinking your own beer????

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You say that as if you can't do both. I beer the beers I like to drink, AND win medals.

Here's to enjoying the beer you brew. I enter competitions mainly to get a more refined opinion than my own and also to learn. I often find I taste my own beer a little differently after reading good notes.

I've been brewing for a year and a half. The last two competitions I got some pretty good scores (40s) on one of my beers, and took second in show for that same beer in another. I've brewed a total of only 19 batches and I had brewed that beer three times. So I'm feeling like I'm on the right track.

I've put a total of four brews into two competitions. My scores ranged from 25-37 iirc. Two "goods" and two "very goods". I would love to get all very good, even an excellent. I have not had a ribbon. My 20th batch was the first I submitted. Some of the other replies point out that style matters a lot. If you are competing against very popular styles, it's harder to win. Sometimes the scores may reflect personal bias or experience of the judge. Submitting the same recipe to different competitions will provide more information. Also, if the competition posts previous winners, check them out. Some competitions seem to favor exotic brews, or very strong ones. Study and practice, try to find useful feedback. Have fun and good luck.

It took me about a year to start constantly score in the upper ranges. The biggest issue was trying t decipher recipes to pull out the right flavors after understanding the flavor from feedback. It took many many experimental batches to hone in upper scores. It wasn't one of those I brewed for or five batches to get there, more like 12-15 batches making small changes and getting consistency down.That being said I had one batch that was a first batch scored well at 4 different events, have been unable to replicate it, and following batches have been consistent 34-36's.

That being said numbers are not everything from one or two events. I know some judges that grade loosely with numbers and others that are stingy. I look more for synonymous in issues of aroma, taste, appearance, and mouthfeel, then work from there. I have 5 beers that score consistently well and 4 others that don't, but are getting closer.

Don't let 3-4 comp scores bother you much as that is minute in what you need if you want good feedback. Send a beer out that you think in really really good to 10-12 different comps (from the same batch) for good judgement. Send them to small club comps out of area and bigger comps as well. Send them regions away as well as, I find that beneficial for some beers as profiles of tastes are different.

A few things that are pretty important in regard to placing in comps (in my opinion).

*You have to be brewing to style. Most of the time putting your own "twist" on something is not a good thing when it comes to comps. Start with recipes out of Brewing Classic Styles or NHC Gold medal recipes from zymurgy. That will almost always get you in the ball park as far as recipe.

*Pay attention to consistent feedback...... Have you heard any of the same things over and over, across beer styles = "Plastic" or "phenolic" off flavors? "Astringency." "Not to Style." DMS or other off flavors/aromas? "fusel/hot alcohols"...... any of these types of things could be a clue to a process problem you have.

*While I agree that style selection can be important (IPA's, American Ales, Stouts seem to always attract more competition)...... I don't necessarily agree that simply entering a lager is going to turn your beers into winners. One of the reasons not a lot of people enter lagers is because they are hard to brew and there isn't a lot to mask mistakes. I enter quite few comps. I notice lots of different people win/medal in some of the categories like IPA or Stout. I recognize some of the exact same winners over and over in a lot of the lager categories - there is a reason for that. Those people can brew consistently, very good lagers - that ain't easy.

*Are you located somewhere that you can go to a homebrew club or find someone who judges or competes a lot who can give you some concrete suggestions..... not the "your beer is great" feedback most of us get from most of our friends, but some honest feedback on process and flaws? That would be your best bet.

* Pick a couple categories and rebrew, rebrew, rebrew..... perfect a couple at a time. I have some categories I feel pretty confident in, and can place 75% or better when I enter them. But, I have also brewed those beers 20-30-40 times - the same beer, with only minor tweaks. If you are always brewing something different, it is hard to improve. Rebrewing beers has probably been one of the 2-3 things that has helped me improve as a brewer more than anything else. As I get comfortable with a couple styles, I start to add new ones. I still have styles that I really feel hit and miss on.

There are also styles I just have not interest in brewing - because I don't like drinking them - belgians, wheat beers, bocks, etc.

Stick with it, look for patterns in your feedback and figure out how to fix them. Where are you located? Maybe someone can suggest a good club in the area, or knowledgeable person to give you some feedback.

Black Island Brewer said:

You say that as if you can't do both. I beer the beers I like to drink, AND win medals.

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Sure, you could do both. More power to you for brewing beer and winning awards for it. However, the OP is getting frustrated from lack of good scores on his beer. I'm thinking that instead of getting frustrated at the lack of good scores, just brew some beer that you like for now. Don't worry about the scores.

CraigKing said:

Sure, you could do both. More power to you for brewing beer and winning awards for it. However, the OP is getting frustrated from lack of good scores on his beer. I'm thinking that instead of getting frustrated at the lack of good scores, just brew some beer that you like for now. Don't worry about the scores.

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Yes, the best way to improve is to quit trying to score better. :cross:
Seriously, he's looking for help on competition, so asking questions from others with experience makes sense. Telling him to quit trying is just not helpful.

^ Hey friend, I'm not here to argue with anyone. You are entitled to your opinions and suggestions just as much as I am. I offered my suggestion to the OP based on my feelings towards homebrewing. If he chooses to consider them, then so be it. However, I don't think it is your place to tell me whether my comments are helpful or not.

Happy brewing.

CraigKing said:

However, I don't think it is your place to tell me whether my comments are helpful or not.

Happy brewing.

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You're absolutely right, my apologies.

NickL said:

So I have been entering compeitions in order to get some critical feedback and improve my brewing. And I really have been learning a lot. I have got some great feedback from the judges. But getting low scores is still frustrating even if you are learning a lot.

So my question is this :
How long had you been brewing before you started to get good scores (35 - 40 range)
How long had you been brewing before you placed?

Click to expand...

A couple suggestions:

1) Are you implementing changes based on the feedback you are receiving? For example, if the judges are telling you that you have some "hot" flavors are you more closely monitoring and controlling your fermentation temps?

2) Where are you getting your recipes from? If the competition is being judged using the BJCP guidelines then you really need to nail the style for the beer you're submitting. I highly, highly recommend picking up a copy of Brewing Classic Styles. I picked up a ribbon just this past weekend with the bock recipe from that book.

What has improved my scoring better than anything else is having control over my fermentation. I have a fermentation chamber and I always use yeast starters - since doing so my scores went from the 20's to the 30's and 40's.

Fermentation flaws followed by oxidation are the flaws that I observe the most when judging. To score in the 30's you just need to produce a beer that doesn't have any perceptible off-flavors. Moving to the 40's is more of a recipe refinement and also depends on who you draw as your judges.

Darwin18 said:

A couple suggestions:

1) Are you implementing changes based on the feedback you are receiving? For example, if the judges are telling you that you have some "hot" flavors are you more closely monitoring and controlling your fermentation temps?

2) Where are you getting your recipes from? If the competition is being judged using the BJCP guidelines then you really need to nail the style for the beer you're submitting. I highly, highly recommend picking up a copy of Brewing Classic Styles. I picked up a ribbon just this past weekend with the bock recipe from that book.

What has improved my scoring better than anything else is having control over my fermentation. I have a fermentation chamber and I always use yeast starters - since doing so my scores went from the 20's to the 30's and 40's.

Fermentation flaws followed by oxidation are the flaws that I observe the most when judging. To score in the 30's you just need to produce a beer that doesn't have any perceptible off-flavors. Moving to the 40's is more of a recipe refinement and also depends on who you draw as your judges.

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Ya I am definitely learning a lot from the feedback. And I am brewing recipes exclusively from Brewing Classics Styles.

I entered the IIPA from that book but the judging was too far after brew date. Oxidation, just like you said. I have also been picking recipes that are plus or minus a few degrees of 68 fermentation temp. 68 is my nominal temp using the swamp cooler method. (My ferm chamber got turned into a kegerator. Worth it.)

Also I have been missing my OGs and am learning how to correct my grain bill accordingly.

We are getting there. Good scores or bad scores I always have a couple kegs full

Thanks everyone for the feedback.
Brewing 70 shilling on Saturday for my latest competition attempt.

Darwin18 said:

A couple suggestions:

1) Are you implementing changes based on the feedback you are receiving? For example, if the judges are telling you that you have some "hot" flavors are you more closely monitoring and controlling your fermentation temps?

2) Where are you getting your recipes from? If the competition is being judged using the BJCP guidelines then you really need to nail the style for the beer you're submitting. I highly, highly recommend picking up a copy of Brewing Classic Styles. I picked up a ribbon just this past weekend with the bock recipe from that book.

What has improved my scoring better than anything else is having control over my fermentation. I have a fermentation chamber and I always use yeast starters - since doing so my scores went from the 20's to the 30's and 40's.

Fermentation flaws followed by oxidation are the flaws that I observe the most when judging. To score in the 30's you just need to produce a beer that doesn't have any perceptible off-flavors. Moving to the 40's is more of a recipe refinement and also depends on who you draw as your judges.

Click to expand...

Ya I am definitely learning a lot from the feedback. And I am brewing recipes exclusively from Brewing Classics Styles.

I entered the IIPA from that book but the judging was too far after brew date. Oxidation, just like you said. I have also been picking recipes that are plus or minus a few degrees of 68 fermentation temp. 68 is my nominal temp using the swamp cooler method. (My ferm chamber got turned into a kegerator. Worth it.)

Also I have been missing my OGs and am learning how to correct my grain bill accordingly.

We are getting there. Good scores or bad scores I always have a couple kegs full

Thanks everyone for the feedback.
Brewing 70 shilling on Saturday for my latest competition attempt.

Also, don't forget that judging can be subjective. Last year I had beers score in the 40's in multiple comps then in another comp it scored a 25??? Strange things can happen.

Lastly set your schedule for your beers. My calendar is loaded with dates that I need to start brewing so my beers will be at their peak. Like my IPAs 4/5 weeks and they are at their peak. ~6 weeks for my darker ales.

Black Island Brewer said:

You're absolutely right, my apologies.

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No apologies necessary - next round on me.

I have about a dozen batches under my belt now and I just entered my first competition recently and I'm patiently waiting on the results. Like all the rest of us, I have enough of my friends saying good things about my beer, figuring that some of that is just not wanting to hurt my feelings. With that said, the reason that I did was to get an "impartial" opinion of my brew. Would it be nice to place? Hell yeah. Am I expecting to place? Not really but that wasn't why I entered.

NickL said:

I entered the IIPA from that book but the judging was too far after brew date. Oxidation, just like you said.

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Oxidation is a process problem made worse by time, not a time problem.

If you're getting oxidation as a consistent feedback, you need to look at your post-ferment handling and racking processes.

bwarbiany said:

Oxidation is a process problem made worse by time, not a time problem.

If you're getting oxidation as a consistent feedback, you need to look at your post-ferment handling and racking processes.

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And, perhaps, your bottling process.

If you bottle condition, do you get "bubbles" in your tubing and bottle filler?

If you bottle off of a keg, do you CO2 flush your bottles and use a counter pressure filler?

In regard to racking - make sure you are not getting any bubbles in your siphon line.