Chlorophenols - my archenemy, my nemesis, my moby dick, my caddy shack gopher.......

**-TH-** · 04-28-2009, 04:01 PM

I’ll get right to the point - all my beers (9 batches to date) have a flavor in them I don’t like – I’m pretty sure its chlorophenols. I would describe it as a burnt plastic/rubber, SWMBO describes it as more of a nasty metallic aftertaste, I notice it most when I burp. If I swish the beer around in a glass and take a big whiff, we both say it could resemble band-aids. But at this point who knows. The flavor has been minimized along the way, and the last two batches are drinkable, but barely. SWMBO still won’t touch it after tasting a sample.

So here’s what I have done in my quest…

Water – Changed from tap to store-bought drinking
Ferm temps – Built a fermentation chamber to hold temps at constant 65°
Sanitizer – Went from chlorine to one-step to iodophor
Fermenters – Tried buckets, BB’s, and glass
Yeast – Have used dry (hydrated and not hydrated) and liquid
Priming – Went from boiled tap water to boiled bottled water, also tried carb tabs
Bottling Equipment – Tried new hoses, tried not using bottling bucket at all (primed in bottles)
Boil Kettle – Have used alum and SS, partial boil and full boil.
Extract – Tried only DME, only LME, and mixture of the 2.
Hops – Have used several varieties: Cascade, Kent Golding, Spalt Select, Willamette, Perle, & Centennial
Steeped Grains – Every batch I steeped grains, usually some sort of Crystal. Tried steeping in 3 gal and 1 gal.
Recipes – A range of styles from hoppy to malty. I use Qbrew to formulate. All batches were 3 gal.
Process – Sometimes used secondary, ferment at least 4 weeks, allow at least 4 weeks in bottles. Many have been in much longer now and still have “the taste”.
Other - Tried RDWHAHB. It didn't work.

So I have completely run out of options. I was determined to make a good extract batch prior to going AG but not anymore. My plan now is to go AG, use tap water but with a campden tablet (my water is supposedly really low in chlorine and no chloromides). I’m going to use a tried and true recipe (probably BM’s centennial blonde). Any other suggestions? I would be willing to mail some samples free of charge to anyone interested in confirming this off taste. Maybe it is something else, like extract twang even. I don't know.

thedude123 · 04-28-2009, 04:11 PM

This is what the BJCP guide said would cause it:

- Wild yeast
- Improper
sanitation
- Some malt types
- Some yeast strains
- Chlorophenols in
water
- Improper rinse of
chlorine sanitizers
- Oversparging;
sparging above pH
6.0; sparging above
170 degrees

This is what it said would fix it:

- Use pure yeast strains
- Practice good
sanitation
- Use “clean” malt
- Use yeast less prone
to phenolic production
- filter tap water
- Use non- chlorine
sanitizers
- Proper sparging while
monitoring temperature
and pH

**Saccharomyces** · 04-28-2009, 10:53 PM

Bottled water isn't guaranteed to be free of chlorine. I treat EVERYTHING with Campden that doesn't go through a chloramine removing filter. Even the tap water I use to mix my Star San.

I recently posted about my recent woes with chlorine... I was getting chlorine from my PVC garden hose I used to clean my equipment. I switched to using an RV hose and/or clean the equipment in the kitchen sink now. Problem solved.

**PintOfBitter** · 04-28-2009, 10:58 PM

I never use any chlorinated products, and use high grade carbon filtration. I ALWAYS had traces of the same flavor you talked about until i tried an AG batch. gone. it could have been a fluke, but I was SO careful with all my extract batches.

If your AG batch is clean, be sure to follow up with a post.

good luck.

MajorTom · 04-28-2009, 11:08 PM

I have been experiencing this same exact problem Bandaid Burps. As far as I can figure is is chlorophenols. I have pretty much tried everything you had tried on your list. I have had this problem with extract and all grain. I thought I had solved when I switched to Bottled spring water. I had a run of really good batches. Then it came back. So, I just brewed another batch today and I treated everything with campden, tried a new brand of spring water, bought a new syphon hose, and other things. I'm really keeping my fingers crossed in hopes that this fixes it. Otherwise I give up.

hbomb · 04-28-2009, 11:40 PM

The last batch I made for a party was a smoked porter with 5# of rauch malt. I tasted it a few days before the party while it was still warm and flat. It was SUPER smokey (hammy!) with hints of what seemed like chlorophenols in the aftertaste. I was a little stressed it was going to suck, but by the time it was cold and carbed there didn't seem to be a trace of either. The day after the party (it had been sitting out and had warmed up) I had some leftover and it seemed to be back, although not as strong as initially.

Dunno if this is relevant at all to your situation, but carbonation and cold seem to help mask off/strong flavors. Hope you figure it out.

chenwood · 04-29-2009, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -TH-

Other - Tried RDWHAHB. It didn't work.

Clearly this is a problem if all your home brews have your off taste. It's a paradox.

**Revvy** · 04-29-2009, 12:24 AM

What are you mixing your sanitizer with....TAP WATER? A lot of people forget that, even in their attempt to avoid chlorine in their brewing water, the mix their sanitizer from the tap....

Pro-brewer has a great two part paper on Chlorophenols...this may have some more info...

It's in pdf form.

Part 1
http://www.probrewer.com/resources/library/42-phenolic.pdf

Part 2
http://www.probrewer.com/resources/library/43-phenolic.pdf

This is a good piece from BYO's mr wizard on Chlorphenols...

Quote:

Chemical off-flavors are frequently encountered in beer and can be caused by numerous factors. The most obvious cause comes from traces of cleaning or sanitizing chemicals left on equipment surfaces after use. Chemicals containing chlorine and iodine are well known contributors of chemical off-flavors if the compounds remain on the equipment. Of the two, chlorine is the worst because it can combine with malt phenols to form a class of compounds called chlorophenols, which have a pronounced medicinal aroma. Iodine sanitizers usually cause no problems if used at their recommended concentration.

Some brewers encounter problems with chlorine even without using chlorinated sanitizers. These problems are often traced to chlorinated tap water. If brewers use chlorinated tap water for rinsing brewing equipment, then chlorophenol off-flavors may arise. One well known craft brewer had a problem with chlorophenols in his fruit beer that was eventually traced to the fruit. The fruit source had been rinsed at the farm with chlorinated water and this chlorine was being introduced to the beer at the time of fruit addition. This problem took some good detective work to solve.

Medicinal aromas can also come from wild yeast contamination. In fact the classic indicator of wild yeast contamination in beer is a distinct phenolic aroma. This aroma is often likened to cloves or the smell of standard bandages.

This PDF may have some answers...I thought I did see Cambden mentioned in it.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fw ww.probrewer.com%2Fresources%2Flibrary%2F42-phenolic.pdf&ei=F7XwSbSeN4ikNaWElb0P&usg=AFQjCNGcx QhIoK71wGiuDqxwJIrCKZtV4w

I would encourage you to send out some samples, or to get some to the nearest BJCP judge...I am always hesitant to self diagnose a beer of my own, simply from reading something....since taste is subjective, I like to have others taste it, without telling them what I think is wrong...and see what people say....Preferably people with more experience in brewing than i have.

Becasue it could very well NOT be Chlorphenols...in fact there could actually be nothing wrong with your beer to another person....you might be too critical.....or something...so send them out....

Hope this helps.

**Revvy** · 04-29-2009, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saccharomyces

Bottled water isn't guaranteed to be free of chlorine. I treat EVERYTHING with Campden that doesn't go through a chloramine removing filter. Even the tap water I use to mix my Star San.

I recently posted about my recent woes with chlorine... I was getting chlorine from my PVC garden hose I used to clean my equipment. I switched to using an RV hose and/or clean the equipment in the kitchen sink now. Problem solved.

+1..I wish I could find that article about how chlorophenols can be "cumulative" they could be the "right" combination of circumstances, including a little bit from the the hose, a little bit from the sanitizer or cleanser, a little bit from the chemical composition of your buckets over time....just little "peces of the puzzel" that in some breweries suddenly add uo...

Did I maybe link it in your original thread?

**Revvy** · 04-29-2009, 12:32 AM

Here's more of the stuff from my posting in other threads.....

Quote:

PHENOLIC

CHARACTERISTICS: A hospital-medicine chest flavor and aroma, best detected by its aroma components; caused by phenols. Some phenolic tastes are desired depending on the style. Other descriptions include Band-Aid-like, plasticlike, smoky, clovelike.

HIGH LEVELS DUE TO PROCESS: Yeast strain; chlorophenols in the water; improper rinse of chlorine sanitizers; oversparging; sparging above pH 6.0; sparging above 170 degrees; wild yeast contamination.

LOW LEVELS DUE TO PROCESS: Charcoal filtering of tap water; good healthy yeast strain; proper sparging while monitoring temperature and pH, good rinse of sanitizers or use of non-chlorine sanitizers.

EXAMPLES: Wheat beers have a high amount of the phenol 4-vinyl guaiacol that gives the characteristic clove taste.

Phenolics are more prominent as an off-aroma, but also are imparted in the flavor of beer. It is described as medicinal, band-aid-like, smokey, clove-like, and plastic-like. Except in certain styles where small amounts are appropriate, phenols are hugely unacceptable. There are many sources of contamination:

* Chlorophenols exist in municipal water supplies and residue from chlorine-based sanitizers. They can affect beer in parts-per-billion (ppb)! Avoidance of both should be given; find a substitute water supply and avoid chlorine-based sanitizers altogether.
* Phenols extracted from malt during the mash and sparge are polyphenols, also called tannins. They interact with proteins to form chill or permanent haze. If oxidized through hot-side aeration, they create oxidized fusel alcohols. Proper sparging, and avoidance of excessive sparging can reduce the phenolic production. Also, sparge water should be low in alkalinity, and not in excess of 167°F. Likewise, extract brewers should avoid boiling grains.
* Phenols are also derived from certain yeast strains that produce aromatic alcohols. Bavarian wheat beers produce acceptable levels of phenols by creating 4-vinyl guaiacol that results in a pleasing clovelike phenolic tone under the correct conditions. Careful selection of yeast can eliminate undesired affects.
* Wild yeast contamination can harbor within plastic-based equipment, such as polyethylene fermenters and plastic hoses. These materials as soft and permeable, hence difficult to clean. Wild yeasts such as S. diatatius produce minor wort phenols that impart medicinal off-flavors. Migration to glass and stainless replacements are the best solution. Also check for defective bottle caps.
* Smokey phenols are a byproduct of smoked malts, such as in Rauchbier, and Scotch ales. Low amounts are appropriate, but excess use of malt can be overbearing.

The other thought is that you have a house bug....a brewery germ now in your system (maybe even in the air) and it is a wild yeast phenolic infection....

Quote:

Wild yeast contamination can harbor within plastic-based equipment, such as polyethylene fermenters and plastic hoses. These materials as soft and permeable, hence difficult to clean. Wild yeasts such as S. diatatius produce minor wort phenols that impart medicinal off-flavors.