Brewmasters warehouse can't ship within Georgia?

ArcaneXor said:

But that makes you complicit in their activities.

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While I agree that if he divulged those names, he may get some support from us, Ed has to think about the business first in this case.

It appears he isn't happy with this situation either, but has to work within the confines of it for at least now. He can't win the battle, at the cost of losing the war.

We do not know who is putting this pressure on him. It may be another LHBS, it could be whom he gets most of his suppies from, it could be someone else entirely. However, it is someone that Ed believes burning a bridge with will potentially cost him his company.

Surviving as a business owner is different than being complicit. Sometimes you have to swallow your pride in order to survive.

As long as BW continues the same level of price and service, I see no way the business won't grow immensly. Hopefully that will be the answer.

Brewmasters Warehouse said:

Home Brewing is a small industry and you can not be successful without the support of everyone in the industry.

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I do not really feel this is true, based on your own evaluation of the situation. If there was enough business coming towards your store that it caused your competitor to seek out this trust agreement, then obviously you CAN be successful without being buddy-buddy with everyone in the industry. Now if you mean to say you will lose distributors, that makes sense. JMHO, take it for what its worth. I'm not saying anything about the quality of your business, Ed, because I have no experience with it. I truly hope everything works out for you, but if I were in your shoes, I would just have crushed my competition and found new distributors if needed. The great thing about the US is that where there's a need, there's a young entrepeneur waiting to make a few bucks!

Brewmasters Warehouse said:

By naming them I would also damage my reputation within the industry, which could cause conducting business very difficult in the future.

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To me, Ed, you are hurting your reputation by admitting to be party to such suspicious activity. I understand that you can or will not divulge certain information, but getting on here and stating that fact makes people start to wonder, and form opinions in their own minds about how much you really knew about what you were getting into......

I sympathise with your predicament.
The laws are there for a reason and I would be concerned that allowing a key player in the industry break them can do no good. Unfortunately you have chose to make it public with the information and petition on your website.

I'm sure you'll manage it how you want but I think I'd try and find a little free legal advice to to make sure you are not involved no matter how remotely in something against the law.

Just to add a thought on the current turn of this thread.

In the case of predatory or intimidating practices the exploited party can "play along" and not be considered complicit in the crime.

Think about the shop owners who pay "protection" money to thugs who enter their store. They are not breaking the law by paying the extortion.

This does not mean the crime is not occurring though.

Added to my signature as well... At least help all of us GA folks out by signing the petition!

I must say that I am surprised and somewhat disillusioned. I didn't realize that the industry that supplies one of the most friendly communities of people (homebrewers and craft beer drinkers) is so corrupt.

I understand your situation, and can tell you that I wouldn't think twice about paying a little more for ingredients and equipment if that allowed you to go with reputable wholesalers/distributers and dump "the man". I have heard nothing but great things about your service, Ed (in fact, I have promoted your current sale on a prominent deal web site), and would love to do business with you. Please keep us posted on any developments, and I promise you I'll make a sizable order as soon as these companies that think they are above the law are cut out of the loop.

P.S. I went ahead and signed the petition.

LumberjackJohn said:

To me, Ed, you are hurting your reputation by admitting to be party to such suspicious activity. I understand that you can or will not divulge certain information, but getting on here and stating that fact makes people start to wonder, and form opinions in their own minds about how much you really knew about what you were getting into......

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I think you are WAY off. I've ordered from BW and will definately order again. This is business and what it comes down to in the end is to you get the product you want for the price you want.

I'm confident that this is a case of him approaching an established retailer and asking for help finding GOOD suppliers....Or a former employer who helped him start up the business. Nobody wants to help put themselves out of business, a condition for this help was to not sell to HIS customers. Totally understandable in my opinion.

While not a perfect solution it was a good argeement, Ed has 47 states he can do business with and the local guy keeps his business going. WIN WIN

My former employer did the same thing 35 years ago under the condition that he not approach any of they companys customers, He was VERY proud of the fact that 35 years later he had built a business and had never broken his word and approached one of his former employers customers.

I hope that ed is able to work this out to the benifit of everyone.

I would like everyone to understand that I had simple choices in this agreement. I certainly could of said "This is something that I do not want to be a part of." If I had done that then there would be no Brewmasters Warehouse right now for everyone to shop with. I instead chose to enter into the agreement, because it was more important to me to keep my business going, especially since I had only been open for a couple of weeks. I risked everything I have on Brewmasters Warehouse. I am trying to make it the best possible place to shop. I refused to walk away from my dreams. I have fought the situation to the best of my ability, and will continue to fight it until everything is resolved.

I am trying to be as open as I can be about the situation. I could have very easily made something else up about why I do not sell in Georgia, and that would have been the end of it. Instead I opened myself up to your opinions and critism over my decision, because I felt that HBT deserved to hear as much of the story as I could possible tell. There are additional details that I can not discuss, due to many reasons. Possible litigation is a big reason to keep details to myself. You can ask people that know the story, and they will all tell you I do not want to be a part of this and never did. When faced with losing everything or making concessions to service customers I chose to make concessions.

ArcaneXor said:

I must say that I am surprised and somewhat disillusioned. I didn't realize that the industry that supplies one of the most friendly communities of people (homebrewers and craft beer drinkers) is so corrupt.

I understand your situation, and can tell you that I wouldn't think twice about paying a little more for ingredients and equipment if that allowed you to go with reputable wholesalers/distributers and dump "the man". I have heard nothing but great things about your service, Ed (in fact, I have promoted your current sale on a prominent deal web site), and would love to do business with you. Please keep us posted on any developments, and I promise you I'll make a sizable order as soon as these companies that think they are above the law are cut out of the loop.

P.S. I went ahead and signed the petition.

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I think I was much more surprised when I found out. I am glad that you are willing to support me. I have done the research and I know what type of impact walking away from this situation would have. Now that we have grown larger it makes it a little easier. If everyone continues to support BMW then I will walk away, very soon.

Wait a minute. It is not illegal or even unethical for a distributor to protect their customers and to allow their customers to have protected territories.

If I'm paying the barriers to entry, physical presence, leases, storefront, signage, wages, etc. that a distributor required prior to signing me up, I would be very active in making sure the distributor stuck to their distributor agreement in signing up new customers in my area. Especially cyber presences with little to no fixed costs.

With limited information available to me I don't know if this is the situation or not.

dontman said:

Wait a minute. It is not illegal or even unethical for a distributor to protect their customers and to allow their customers to have protected territories.

If I'm paying the barriers to entry, physical presence, leases, storefront, signage, wages, etc. that a distributor required prior to signing me up, I would be very active in making sure the distributor stuck to their distributor agreement in signing up new customers in my area. Especially cyber presences with little to no fixed costs.

With limited information available to me I don't know if this is the situation or not.

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You are absolutely correct about protected territory.

Edit: Which is why I beleive that legal action would not allow me to correct the situation as easily as it has been suggested. Unfair yes, but illegal maybe, maybe not.

I think I figured it out. Ed's father-in-law owns a chain of HBSs. He doesnt want to get the SWMBO mad at him.

Skins_Brew said:

I think I figured it out. Ed's father-in-law owns a chain of HBSs. He doesnt want to get the SWMBO mad at him.

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I think she is mad at me since I am posting on the forums instead of the Honey Do List.

Brewmasters Warehouse said:

I think she is mad at me since I am posting on the forums instead of the Honey Do List.

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As far as i see it, i think i did a pretty good job for valentines day. I should have a solid 2 days to sit on my ass if i want.

You should take the same amount of time as well.

Brewmasters Warehouse said:

I think she is mad at me since I am posting on the forums instead of the Honey Do List.

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Dammit I hate the f'ing honey do list. It never ends and there is always something looming.

Brewmasters Warehouse said:

You are absolutely correct about protected territory.

Edit: Which is why I beleive that legal action would not allow me to correct the situation as easily as it has been suggested. Unfair yes, but illegal maybe, maybe not.

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Yes,

I actually deleted my post declaring such actions as illegal. I think I understand a little about the situation now without knowing the specifics.

I guess my thinking now is, if the distributor gave you a special pass when starting up your company and disregarded one of their own rules then maybe you should be satisfied with a 47 state territory.

In saying this I am thinking of this excerpt from a distributor's agreement I have sitting on my desk waoting for signature:

" Criteria:
We do not sell to clubs, individuals, home operated, or internet/mail order-only businesses. We are interested in businesses that can properly represent our products to sell in a retail location.


On-premise accounts need to provide their winery or brewery license, if applicable, or any other licensing that applies to their business.


Retail stores and on-premises must provide a copy of their business license and the address or general area of their proposed location. It must be commercially zoned and a retail storefront. Retailers meeting our qualifications are subject to store location approval for both the quality of the location and the proximity to like businesses.


Retailers are subject to a $2000.00 first order minimum that must be prepaid. Subsequent orders have no minimum order amount and are entitled to 30-day terms based on the credit application.


Wineries and breweries need to provide their winery or brewery license. Wineries and breweries are not subject to a first order minimum, but the first order must be prepaid. Subsequent orders are entitled to 30-day terms based on the credit application.


Manufacturers interested in specific items for production purposes unrelated to beer and winemaking retail may set up an account for those items. Manufacturers are not subject to a first order minimum, but the first order must be prepaid. Subsequent orders are entitled to 30-day terms based on the credit application. Manufacturers are required to produce a copy of their business license.


As a courtesy to our full service retailers, we will drop ship on special request and charge a handling fee. We are not an order fulfillment center for mail order companies.

When I read the first codicil of this agreement I chose to put off opening my business for a year or so until I had a brick and mortar location rather than seeking a work-around for it.

That said, I have never heard of an entire state being the protected territory. I am counting on the territory being less than 5 miles.

dontman said:

When I read the first codicil of this agreement I chose to put off opening my business for a year or so until I had a brick and mortar location rather than seeking a work-around for it.

That said, I have never heard of an entire state being the protected territory. I am counting on the territory being less than 5 miles.

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I'm versed in this, from the distributor/manufacturers side. We give 100 miles for a dealer in the marine/recreation industry.

Protected territories suck, period. It allows lazy dealers to be the only stop for our product based only on the fact that they've always dealt the product.

My situation is not a work around, as I have all of the qualifications mentioned in the agreement, but my current location has caused many concerns about too much competition in too small of an area. I do not agree with this, but that is the way it is. I am actively seeking another location that puts me in a position to avoid these concerns.

I wish I had remembered about protective territory earlier in this thread. It would have made things a lot clearer. This topic about not selling in Georgia gets my blood boiling.

Brewmasters Warehouse said:

I am actively seeking another location that puts me in a position to avoid these concerns.

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Vermont could always use another good LHBS!! Just saying, if you dont mind the cold....

Best of luck with this.

Protected territories suck, period. It allows lazy dealers to be the only stop for our product based only on the fact that they've always dealt the product.


+1000


Ant

Okay, I'm convinced. I'll be ordering from Brewmaster's Warehouse exclusively. I grew up in GA, near Marietta, and hate to think that if I still lived there I couldn't shop where I wanted. You'll be getting my first of many orders soon, Ed. Keep it up. This is bull**** and your business is going to be stronger for going through it.

khuygie88 said:

Vermont could always use another good LHBS!! Just saying, if you dont mind the cold....

Best of luck with this.

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I am not a big fan of the cold after growing up in upstate NY, and moving to the south, I am not sure I could deal with the winters again.

Brewmasters Warehouse said:

My situation is not a work around, as I have all of the qualifications mentioned in the agreement, but my current location has caused many concerns about too much competition in too small of an area. I do not agree with this, but that is the way it is. I am actively seeking another location that puts me in a position to avoid these concerns.

I wish I had remembered about protective territory earlier in this thread. It would have made things a lot clearer. This topic about not selling in Georgia gets my blood boiling.

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I notice warehouse in your name. My coffee roastery is zoned industrial and I do not do retail. I have been toying for years with opening a retail site as well but then it begs to be a cafe then restaurant, then I have to open at 5 AM and conform to FDA restaurant regs.

Now with the possibility of being a coffee AND beer brewing retail outlet this changes things. This is what I have been lining up.

The problem AND impetus is that I have a LHBS about 3 miles away. He is terrible and absolutely gouges on prices. He deserves to have someone new come in and spank the brat out of him for gouging but I am not sure the distributor will see things that way.

(By the way Ed, I went to Emory and lived on Ponce at Briarcliff while going to school.)

Brewmasters Warehouse said:

Put yourself in the position of a store owner for a second. Many of the products that all home brew stores sell come from a single supplier. If that supplier thinks I will take steps to hurt their business then they can simply refuse to sell me anything. My inventory would quickly shrink to the point were I would lose sales due to a poor selection of products.

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I would drop an anonymous note to Georgia' AG about monopolistic distribution behavior.

BugleBrew said:

Okay, I'm convinced. I'll be ordering from Brewmaster's Warehouse exclusively. I grew up in GA, near Marietta, and hate to think that if I still lived there I couldn't shop where I wanted. You'll be getting my first of many orders soon, Ed. Keep it up. This is bull**** and your business is going to be stronger for going through it.

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Thanks we appreciate all of the support that everyone at HBT has shown. We take good care of all of our customers.

Ed

dontman said:

I notice warehouse in your name. My coffee roastery is zoned industrial and I do not do retail. I have been toying for years with opening a retail site as well but then it begs to be a cafe then restaurant, then I have to open at 5 AM and conform to FDA restaurant regs.

Now with the possibility of being a coffee AND beer brewing retail outlet this changes things. This is what I have been lining up.

The problem AND impetus is that I have a LHBS about 3 miles away. He is terrible and absolutely gouges on prices. He deserves to have someone new come in and spank the brat out of him for gouging but I am not sure the distributor will see things that way.

(By the way Ed, I went to Emory and lived on Ponce at Briarcliff while going to school.)

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Based on my experience, and what I went through, you may have a problem with the other LHBS being 3 miles away. The magic number thrown around when I was choosing a location was 25 miles, and that was from a winery with an on premise wine making. I do not even sell wine anything to give you an idea on how strict things can get.

I made it to page 5, then got tired of everyone trying to run your business!

By entering the agreement, you didn't burn any bridges. In the long run, when you able to open to the public without burning bridges, the better shop will prevail.

I went to school in Clemson, SC and am very fimilar with the Atlanta area. Even though I just moved to Ohio, my next order is going to be through you Ed. The only reason I didn't order in the past was that Thomas Creek Brewery was 20 minutes away. He sells his grain go homebrewers at a very good price.

Brewmasters Warehouse said:

Possible litigation is a big reason to keep details to myself.

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Ed - I know your probably in a tough spot, but I do want to give you a little ray of sunshine on your litigation concerns (now, I am not a lawyer, but I have looked into these issues before when threatened with lawsuits)

If the things you say are 100% true and you accurately portray the situation then there is NO chance of the other party getting a successful lawsuit against you for libel, slander, or anything else...Them suing you might also make an anti-trust case against them hold more water. I would venture to say that if you went and found a good corporate attorney they would represent you for nothing because their fees and more would be covered in the massive countersuit that would be filed on the same day as any legal action they attempt to take against you.

Large companies use the threat of lawsuits against someone as a scare tactic to make you do what they want because they assume/know that you can't afford a court battle. Many times, when you laugh at them and say go ahead and sue me, they never will, knowing that it will cost them more in the long run since they really don't have a case.

Monster vs. Blue Jeans cable is a great example of this.

Having said that - if you need to work with them, lawsuits are not a good way to build a good relationship.

Thanks everyone for your support and encourangement. I know that in the end Brewmasters Warehouse will be everything that I envisioned it when I started. This has been a small set back in terms of when that happens, but I know that it is just a when, and not if it happens.

i will be placing orders with you as well getting a shoping list ready

When I started this thread yesterday there were 12 names on the petition. 24 hours later, and it is up to 36 names.

I don't know how many names it will take Ed, but hopefully the HBT community can help.

I don't know what laws everyone keeps citing....

Distributors/manufacturers can play havoc on a business in this country. If you've ever worked at a car dealership or even a grocery store you would understand that a retailer is virtually powerless against a distributor if they don't play along with the big boys.

Price setting, collusion and mini-monopolies are part of the reason everything costs so much here. If you want things to change write your congressman because it starts with lobbyists and ends with who employs more people and pays more taxes.

We must be lucky then, because our distributors compete with each other to offer us the best deals. We are constantly getting very good deals in terms of price, financing, or "buy one get one etc." We run a small business, but not a LHBS.

reim0027 said:

We must be lucky then, because our distributors compete with each other to offer us the best deals. We are constantly getting very good deals in terms of price, financing, or "buy one get one etc." We run a small business, but not a LHBS.

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I see you are in the great lakes region from your membership profile. You are lucky... the area you live in combined with local demand and sluggish economy will go a long ways in breaking price fixing etc..., some areas just aren't that fortunate.

Glubki said:

I don't know what laws everyone keeps citing...Price setting, collusion and mini-monopolies are part of the reason everything costs so much here. If you want things to change write your congressman because it starts with lobbyists and ends with who employs more people and pays more taxes.

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You can't control what they charge you, but you can sure as hell sell something for whatever you want. The only thing they can do is a MAP (minimum advertised price) meaning you can't take out a Sunday ad selling IPod Touches for $50. Other than that is covered by Dr. Miles Medical Co. v. John D. Park Sons Co. A 1911 case in which a mfg tried to dictate a minimum sale price. It was almost overturned in 07, but as of now is still on the books.

Than they just refuse to sell to you or jack your prices up and if there are a limited number of distributors in your area you are S.O.L.

Brewmasters Warehouse said:

I am not a big fan of the cold after growing up in upstate NY, and moving to the south, I am not sure I could deal with the winters again.

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Well, I've never seen any snow, but I've been in the southern part of Georgia when the temperature has dipped down into the teens...like about three weeks ago!!!!!

Well this is a bummer. I drive by every now and then to check and see if you're open for brick-and-mortar retail yet. Guess now I know why you're not. I hope its the distributor/wholesaler that's causing you so much grief and not "the other guy" because I've shopped there a few times (as recently as Friday) and talked to the owner who seems like a real nice guy. Hopefully, I'm not that bad of a judge of character.

Cheers mate, I hope everything works out in the end, and look forward to sending you some of my money here soon.

-Aubrey (Kennesaw/Acworth)

PS: If you need a new location, there's a nice brand-new retail strip-mall thing on Wade Green across from Home Depot offering 90 days free rent to new tenants... And its 1.5 miles from my house... ;-)

[ame="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=3906+cherokee+st+nw+kennesaw+ga&sll=34.04857,-84.597902&sspn=0.002587,0.004361&ie=UTF8&ll=34.048339,-84.598053&spn=0.005174,0.008723&t=h&z=17"]Google Maps[/ame] on the south side of Cherokee, between the small building (fire station) and the U-shaped retail thing, those trees are now the place I'm talking about (you can see it in streetview while it was under construction). The big patch of dirt is now a Home Deopt. Less than .5 mile from exit 273 on I-75 (and did I mention 1.5 miles from my house? )

Ed-

If you can not work this out behind closed doors, I hope you'll tell them that you intend to tell your customers the truth as to why you can not sell to them. I would not shop at a retailer that was involved in this and I believe most other home brewers would feel the same.

Good Luck