New Giveaway - Wort Monster Conical Fermenter!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > General Beer Discussion > Brew on Premise Laws




Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-19-2011, 07:42 PM   #1
TreeHugger
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: indy, in
Posts: 43
Likes Given: 2

Default Brew on Premise Laws

Hello all,
I live in Indianapolis and have recently discovered that the state's Alcohol and Tobacco commission has decided not to allow Brew-on-Premises establishments to operate within the state's borders. I want to open one in the state and need some assistance.

Has anyone experienced having to fight a commission or eliminating an ordinace/law at the state level? Particularly in the alcohol business?

I dont want to give up on this and will fight my ass off to make it happen.

Thoughts?



__________________
TreeHugger is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-19-2011, 07:53 PM   #2
Zeal
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Anderson, CA
Posts: 73
Default

Sam Cologonie of Dogfish head had to fight Delawares law of no brewerys are aloud inside the state. Before he opened the dogfish head brew pub. Maybe write them a message.



__________________
King of Hearts Brewing Co.

"The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind."
-Humphrey Bogart
"Brewers enjoy working to make beer as much as drinking beer instead of working."
-Harold Rudolph
Zeal is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-19-2011, 08:46 PM   #3
ReverseApacheMaster
Registered User
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Keller, Texas
Posts: 4,887
Liked 227 Times on 191 Posts

Default

It will depend whether it is a statute or a regulation promulgated by the state ABC. If it is a statute then the legislature will have to amend the law. If it is an administrative regulation than the agency will have to repeal the regulation and probably pass a new regulation permitting it, depending upon the limitations in the statutory language.

You will probably have to spend a lot of time (and money) lobbying the "right" people to make the change.

__________________
ReverseApacheMaster is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-19-2011, 08:59 PM   #4
TreeHugger
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: indy, in
Posts: 43
Likes Given: 2

Default

It is def not a state law. I proposed the idea and the ATC basically discussed the premise and decided they were not comfortable allowing a set up such as this. Ive got the time and money, it is more personal now and I feel like being a maverick.

Any idea how the "right" people would be? I initially think of the local congressman/woman but who knows.

__________________
TreeHugger is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-20-2011, 01:41 AM   #5
ReverseApacheMaster
Registered User
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Keller, Texas
Posts: 4,887
Liked 227 Times on 191 Posts

Default

You're going to want to speak with a lawyer who can research the law and tell you whether the law permits BOP or specifically what prohibits it. That's going to determine what your next steps are.

It may be the case that the state law is silent to the whole issue and there is nothing to stop you from doing it. An agency decision, made arbitrarily without authority under statute or established rule, lacks authority to be enforced. So just because they said they don't like the idea it doesn't mean that they can stop you from doing it (although they may come raid your shop and force you to defend it in court). Sometimes it makes sense to go to court and obtain an order to prevent the ATC from shutting you down. There are situations where the best way to win is to proceed with the business and fight it out in court. Since Indiana does not have a specific permit for BOP you might have to argue that BOP is within the homebrew statutes and it does not also fall within any other required brewing permit requirements. Of course if you lose you might face penalties, taxes, imprisonment, forfeiture of business assets, etc.

In the alternative, you could lobby your state legislature to carve out a BOP permit that protects what you want to do. You probably need to coordinate a large, state-wide lobby effort of the state legislature along with the local homebrew clubs. Most likely you will need your state legislature to carve out a new permit for BOP. An attorney should be able to find a consulting firm or law firm that can map out an effective lobbying effort.

__________________
ReverseApacheMaster is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-20-2011, 01:01 PM   #6
TreeHugger
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: indy, in
Posts: 43
Likes Given: 2

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReverseApacheMaster View Post
You're going to want to speak with a lawyer who can research the law and tell you whether the law permits BOP or specifically what prohibits it. That's going to determine what your next steps are.

It may be the case that the state law is silent to the whole issue and there is nothing to stop you from doing it. An agency decision, made arbitrarily without authority under statute or established rule, lacks authority to be enforced. So just because they said they don't like the idea it doesn't mean that they can stop you from doing it (although they may come raid your shop and force you to defend it in court). Sometimes it makes sense to go to court and obtain an order to prevent the ATC from shutting you down. There are situations where the best way to win is to proceed with the business and fight it out in court. Since Indiana does not have a specific permit for BOP you might have to argue that BOP is within the homebrew statutes and it does not also fall within any other required brewing permit requirements. Of course if you lose you might face penalties, taxes, imprisonment, forfeiture of business assets, etc.

In the alternative, you could lobby your state legislature to carve out a BOP permit that protects what you want to do. You probably need to coordinate a large, state-wide lobby effort of the state legislature along with the local homebrew clubs. Most likely you will need your state legislature to carve out a new permit for BOP. An attorney should be able to find a consulting firm or law firm that can map out an effective lobbying effort.
Thank you for the insights here Apache. I have done some research and there is indeed no speicfic provision in the state laws preventing someone from operating a BOP; but I am not aware of the ATC's authority to enforce a mandate that they originate. The state Master Sheriff in charge of liquor and tobacco enforcement has actually been awesome; he is helping me tailor my pitch and submitting it directly to the ATC commissioner.

I am submitting a couple more options to the ATC on Monday. I figure they want revenue and have not thought through the excise tax dollars and permit fees a business such as this would generate.
__________________
TreeHugger is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-20-2011, 01:21 PM   #7
TromboneGuy
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 278
Liked 5 Times on 4 Posts

Default

Yeah, if the initial rejection came from a flunky at the ATC, then the person you want to talk to is the head of the ATC. If HE poo-poos the idea, then you have to go over his head, probably to the secretary of state or governor's office. If there's no law against it, then all you need is someone in that chain of command to issue an official OK and probably some paperwork as verification. But you'll also want to talk to those same people about establishing a permit system so it can be made official and regulated (they like that word). That prevents the initial flunky from trying to pull strings to get the OK overturned because he's all butthurt that you went over his head.

__________________
TromboneGuy is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-20-2011, 01:43 PM   #8
Pappers_
Moderator
HBT_MODERATOR.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Pappers_'s Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Chicago
Posts: 11,215
Liked 805 Times on 584 Posts
Likes Given: 1819

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeHugger
The state Master Sheriff in charge of liquor and tobacco enforcement has actually been awesome; he is helping me tailor my pitch and submitting it directly to the ATC commissioner.
This seems like a helpful approach, approach it as a negotiation, figure out what their objections are and address them.
__________________
http://www.singingboysbrewing.com
Pappers_ is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-20-2011, 01:47 PM   #9
Revvy
Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Revvy's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: "Detroitish" Michigan
Posts: 40,794
Liked 2661 Times on 1606 Posts
Likes Given: 3452

Default

Contact the American Homebrewer's Association, they might already have folks on this.

__________________

Like my snazzy new avatar? Get Sons of Zymurgy swag, here, and brew with the best.

Revvy's one of the cool reverends. He has a Harley and a t-shirt that says on the back "If you can read this, the bitch was Raptured. - Madman

I gotta tell ya, just between us girls, that Revvy is HOT. Very tall, gorgeous grey hair and a terrific smile. He's very good looking in person, with a charismatic personality... he drives like a ****ing maniac! - YooperBrew

Revvy is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-20-2011, 04:36 PM   #10
TreeHugger
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: indy, in
Posts: 43
Likes Given: 2

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revvy View Post
Contact the American Homebrewer's Association, they might already have folks on this.
Another good idea to reach out to the AHBA; seems as if they are willing to help with legalization movements. I just finished up sending an email to the Director over there. Not sure if they worry about BOP, but it seems to me that by not allowing a BOP(which is essentially homebrewing at someone else's home because they have better equipment) then that is one step away from stripping many rights of general home brewers.


__________________
TreeHugger is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Brew-on-premise planning ULynch General Beer Discussion 33 12-11-2012 12:34 PM
Commercial Brewing: drink on premise or distribute locally? Joeywhat General Beer Discussion 12 02-09-2010 10:05 PM
anyone brew on premise ? kappclark General Beer Discussion 7 05-07-2009 09:10 PM
Laws on homebrewing? Dave the Brewer General Beer Discussion 8 12-29-2007 05:24 PM
6% laws? zoebisch01 General Beer Discussion 19 03-06-2007 01:10 PM