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bierhaus15 · 01-10-2013, 12:29 AM

It's not that you want something more neutral, it's that your not going to get the same type of malt character from using modern pils as you would from a UK or continental pale. Pils is sweet and sharp (grainy) and your UK pales are going to give you a much more of a softer/rounded, biscuity flavor. Even UK lager malt is more like their pale malts than a typical German pils. Exactly how these circa 1800' pale malts actually taste, we don't know for sure, but we can be confident that they are not like modern pils malts given the grain source and kilning methods of the time.

Hell, if you just want to brew the beer with whatever you got on hand (even if it pils) and not do the whole historical-thing, that's great too. I'm just saying that for the sake of historical accuracy, the UK pale is probably closer to the stuff they were using than modern pils.

As per the oak barrels, some oak flavor did come from the barrels, as there are accounts of brewers complaining how casks of their beer have been tainted with oak flavor. This tells us two things: Barrels were probably not lined with pitch and that oak flavor was not wanted in their beer, regardless or not if it was prevalent. The two types of oak they used (that did not give off oak flavors) were 'English oak' and 'Memel' from Poland... which was heavily used by the Burton brewers.

I won't even start about Brett.

rexbanner · 01-10-2013, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bierhaus15

It's not that you want something more neutral, it's that your not going to get the same type of malt character from using modern pils as you would from a UK or continental pale. Pils is sweet and sharp (grainy) and your UK pales are going to give you a much more of a softer/rounded, biscuity flavor. Even UK lager malt is more like their pale malts than a typical German pils. Exactly how these circa 1800' pale malts actually taste, we don't know for sure, but we can be confident that they are not like modern pils malts given the grain source and kilning methods of the time.

Hell, if you just want to brew the beer with whatever you got on hand (even if it pils) and not do the whole historical-thing, that's great too. I'm just saying that for the sake of historical accuracy, the UK pale is probably closer to the stuff they were using than modern pils.

As per the oak barrels, some oak flavor did come from the barrels, as there are accounts of brewers complaining how casks of their beer have been tainted with oak flavor. This tells us two things: Barrels were probably not lined with pitch and that oak flavor was not wanted in their beer, regardless or not if it was prevalent. The two types of oak they used (that did not give off oak flavors) were 'English oak' and 'Memel' from Poland... which was heavily used by the Burton brewers.

I won't even start about Brett.

OK, so I have German pils, American two-row, and UK Maris Otter on hand. What would you recommend?

bierhaus15 · 01-10-2013, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rexbanner

OK, so I have German pils, American two-row, and UK Maris Otter on hand. What would you recommend?

Sorry if I came across as patronizing on that last post. Not my intention. With those malts, either MO or a mix of MO and pale should be fine.

Good luck with the brew.

rexbanner · 01-10-2013, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bierhaus15

Sorry if I came across as patronizing on that last post. Not my intention. With those malts, either MO or a mix of MO and pale should be fine.

Good luck with the brew.

NP man, I'm sure I come off as patronizing all the time, it's just the way things are when you're not talking face to face. I'm here to learn, so it's all good.

I think I'm gonna do 60% MO 40% pale because I have a lot of both, and I think it will taste good.

**KeyWestBrewing** · 01-10-2013, 03:43 AM

Sorry if this was already mentioned or if I'm too late here. But I would use Marris Otter instead of 2 Row.

Bithead · 01-10-2013, 02:39 PM

I say if you're trying to recreate as accurately as possible the historic recipe then use British pale malt. Maybe MO & pale. If you want to recreate the recipe with your own interpretation then US pale would be fine.

I think it's great Ron chimed in on this thread. He's quite knowledgeable about historic British brewing and doesn't often post here.

gbx · 01-10-2013, 03:02 PM

Alright, since Ron is in the thread and its sort of on topic, where is Kristen? Are we ever going to get a new Let's Brew post? Maybe somebody can take over if Kristen is too busy with his brewery (I nominate bierhaus). I'm happy with just transcribed brew logs like the EI porter but someone should start an official thread that we can argue about substitutions.

That said, I'm also planning on brewing an 1800's IPA inspired by the IPA book. My plan was to kill my bag of weyermann pilsner, 100% EKG, wy1968 and WLP brett C.

patto1ro · 01-10-2013, 04:14 PM

I lurk a lot. I only post when I think I can contribute soemthing.

Funnily enough, I just got an email from Kristen about the reason for delay in Let's Brew recipes. Blame his kids (they've wrecked two laptops) and his brewery. The good news is that there should be a new recipe soon.

gbx · 01-10-2013, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bierhaus15

It's not that you want something more neutral, it's that your not going to get the same type of malt character from using modern pils as you would from a UK or continental pale. Pils is sweet and sharp (grainy) and your UK pales are going to give you a much more of a softer/rounded, biscuity flavor. Even UK lager malt is more like their pale malts than a typical German pils. Exactly how these circa 1800' pale malts actually taste, we don't know for sure, but we can be confident that they are not like modern pils malts given the grain source and kilning methods of the time.

Hell, if you just want to brew the beer with whatever you got on hand (even if it pils) and not do the whole historical-thing, that's great too. I'm just saying that for the sake of historical accuracy, the UK pale is probably closer to the stuff they were using than modern pils.

For a recipe like this, really really hoppy, highly attenuated and refermented with brett, I didn't think it would be a horrible crime against beer history to use german pilsner malt as modern UK malt is going to be different from burton white malt too. Maybe I should cut it with some MO or GP?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bierhaus15

I won't even start about Brett.

Please start about Brett! What are your thoughts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by patto1ro

I lurk a lot. I only post when I think I can contribute soemthing.

Funnily enough, I just got an email from Kristen about the reason for delay in Let's Brew recipes. Blame his kids (they've wrecked two laptops) and his brewery. The good news is that there should be a new recipe soon.

Good to hear! Is there a message board people discuss this stuff on? Should we start a thread on HBT dedicated to lets brew? I'd love a FAQ about substitutions and somewhere I could ask questions.

Crucial-BBQ · 01-10-2013, 07:00 PM

I don't think MO, or any "modern" grain will be historically accurate. Also, the first Corn Law went into effect in the U.K. in 1815, making cost prohibitive to by imported grains, so German Pils is not going to be historically accurate, but seeing as how the title of this thread is 1880 IPA, German grains were more-than-likely imported into the U.K. prior to 1815. Also, if I remember correctly, 2-Row grows better in the U.K., and is the preferred grain. So, personally, I would use a basic 2-Row English pale.

Quote:

Originally Posted by unionrdr

Well,one brewery in Sheffield,England mention to a journalist of the day that they barrel aged their Burton ale for 14 years. I casll BS on that,the beer would have to be a barleywine to stand up that long. Even then,IDK...

Perhaps this was before the 1800s, but there was a point in time when new fathers of male offspring would brew a barrel of beer (or have one brewed for them) that was let to age until the son came-of-age, was married, etc. They did begin in the barleywine territory, but supposedly with the aging they really mellow out. There is a wine shop near my home that sells bottles of 12 year old beer that began life as a barleywine. I have yet to try it, but the shop owner swears that it has lost any indication of being a barleywine and has aged into a quite pleasant tasting ale, albeit quite potent with alcohol.