cweston
Well-Known Member
Todd said:
No--if you ferment it out and chill it (to drop the yeast out), all you need to do on brew day is bring it up to pitching temp and pour or siphon off the beer & pitch the yeast.
yeast farming
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No--if you ferment it out and chill it (to drop the yeast out), all you need to do on brew day is bring it up to pitching temp and pour or siphon off the beer & pitch the yeast.
Todd
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cweston said:
Great thanks. At some point I should have all the basics down.
tockeyhockey
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so i'm reading this thread and i got to thinking -- what would happen if you simply put a new batch of wort ontop of a just finished fermenting yeast cake? would the fermentation process start anew?
Todd
Well-Known Member
tockeyhockey said:
yep, we did that with the last brew.
Todd
Well-Known Member
Everyone I just need to make sure I understand. If there is still foam on the top of my starter it is still fermenting and I should either pitch the entire thing or keep waiting till I pour off the wort? When I shake things up in the jar chunks of what I think are yeast start floating around from the foam, will all of that settle to the bottom once it is finished?
I think what happened is I used too much wort, I initially started with 1 quart and then added another half a quart to it a couple days later.
I wish I could post a picture to be sure, the foam is probably 1/4 - 1/2 inch thick, I can't see any churning or anything taking place.
I think what happened is I used too much wort, I initially started with 1 quart and then added another half a quart to it a couple days later.
I wish I could post a picture to be sure, the foam is probably 1/4 - 1/2 inch thick, I can't see any churning or anything taking place.
cweston
Well-Known Member
Todd said:
I think you've got it all correct: I'd say your starter is still actively fermenting, with the yeast mostly in supension. If you pitch it now, pitch the whole thing. (And 1.5 quarts is not such a huge amount--that'd be about 7% by volume of a 5.5 gal primary.)
Otherwise, let it fully ferment and the yeast will drop out of suspension.
Grimsawyer
Well-Known Member
As in, just racked from primary to secondary leaving the yeast cake, AKA trube, behind then dumping in your next batch of wort right on in?tockeyhockey said:
cweston
Well-Known Member
Grimsawyer said:As in, just racked from primary to secondary leaving the yeast cake, AKA trube, behind then dumping in your next batch of wort right on in?
That's right. Then insert blow-off tube and stand back--this makes for a really turbo-charged fermentation.
Grimsawyer
Well-Known Member
SWEET!!! I CAN'T wait to try this!!!!! hehe, thanks guys :rockin: :rockin: :rockin: what is the fastest fermentation has started cause of this technique? 1 hour @ full krausen?cweston said:
Todd
Well-Known Member
Grimsawyer said:
I used about half the yeast cake on a stout and within an hour we have very fast bubbling, it was in a bucket so I don't know what was happening inside.
I have done this method several times with great success. One thing to keep in mind though and that is the order in which beers are pitched onto the yeast cakes of previous batches is important. What I mean by that is you wouldn't want to pitch a beer with an OG of 1.050 onto the yeast cake from an Imperial Stout that had an OG of 1.090. The yeast would be tuckered out and stressed. You also would probably not want to pitch a light American ale onto the yeast cake of a smoked porter, for fear of imparting the strong character of the porter into the lighter flavored and colored American ale. You get the idea.
The last time I did this I pitched a Russian Imperial Stout with an OG of 1.090 onto the yeast cake from a Creme Stout that had an OG of 1.060. I pitched the yeast at 6:00 pm, and had a krausen in full blow off by 10:00 pm! It was the most violent fermentation that I have experienced so far.
The last time I did this I pitched a Russian Imperial Stout with an OG of 1.090 onto the yeast cake from a Creme Stout that had an OG of 1.060. I pitched the yeast at 6:00 pm, and had a krausen in full blow off by 10:00 pm! It was the most violent fermentation that I have experienced so far.
ryser2k
Well-Known Member
Don't mean to hijack the thread... but...
How do you like those Better Bottles? Are they 6 gal? I was thinking of picking up one or two to replace my 7gal plastic bucket and 5gal glass carboy as primary and secondary.
Is it worth having the spigot on there?
How do you like those Better Bottles? Are they 6 gal? I was thinking of picking up one or two to replace my 7gal plastic bucket and 5gal glass carboy as primary and secondary.
Is it worth having the spigot on there?
andre the giant
Well-Known Member
I just racked my Doppelbock to secondary yesterday, and since the yeast cake was WY2206 Bavarian Lager, the same yeast that my Helles recipe calls for, I decided to use the cake for that beer. But the Doppelbock trub has lots of chocolate malt aroma and whatnot, and I didn't want this to taint the beer, so I washed the yeast first. I ended up with about 2 quarts of good yeast and pitched one of those into the Helles. Within 4 hours, we had liftoff! By hour number 10, there was a good 2-3 inch layer of krausen. I placed the fermenter in the beer fridge and started lowering the temp. (the doppelbock is still at room temp, but will go in the fridge when I get home...)
I had never washed yeast before, but it seems like an easy relatively quick way to save some bucks. My hint, use distilled water. Waiting for the boiled water to cool is kinda a pain in the ARSE.
I had never washed yeast before, but it seems like an easy relatively quick way to save some bucks. My hint, use distilled water. Waiting for the boiled water to cool is kinda a pain in the ARSE.
ryser2k said:
I love them, and use them exclusively now. I have two 6 gallon for primary and two 5 gallon for secondary. The racking adapters and high flow valves are a must, IMHO. If you would like some more info, feel free to PM me.
John
The yeast fitness mutation rate is fairly low but spontaneous mutation do happen in fungi; not as often as bacteria but it happens. The storage method of yeast, the media(food) it is grown up on for storage and how long it is quiescent a 4Celsius all affect the yeast. The fact that one must vent the storage vessel in the refrigerator periodically indicates the yeast are continuing to grow. If the yeast are stored in water and they're trying to survive on little to no nutrient then alternative gene pathways are turned on and others shut down or down regulated all affecting the flavour profile of that yeast. Then we toss them into a sugar rich wort with all kinds of yeast nutrients, we're just asking for spontaneous mutations to result. A better method for storing yeast is to take your slurry and make glycerol/glycerine, or DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide) stocks and store them in the freezer. 2 milliliters or about 1/2 teaspoon stocks store easily in the freezer and you can make tons of them. Simply remove, thaw slowly on ice, and pour into 1 liter of sterilized wort to get a starter. Not too much trouble but you'll maintain the desire flavor profile.
I was reading this the other day, and it seemed there was a bit of confusion about yeast washing, so I took some pics of the process I used for some White Labs WLP029 German Ale/Kolsch yeast. Sterilization is KEY! I use StarSan primarily, wear rubber gloves, flame the mouths of all glass containers, and avoid breathing directly into or onto any of the equipment. Here goes:
First I harvested some of the yeast/trub cake at the bottom of the primary fermenter, put it into a sterile White Labs vial, and let it settle.
Then I made a one cup starter in a 1L Erlenmeyer flask with 1 oz of light DME and 1/4 tsp of ID Carlson's Yeast Energizer (boiled and cooled). I shook the top third of the harvest back into solution, trying to avoid disturbing the coagulated protein mass at the bottom. I pitched that top third into my 1 cup starter and placed it on my stirplate overnight.
I stepped the starter up to 3 cups by adding 2 cups of water boiled with 2 oz of light DME and 1/2 tsp of the yeast nutrient. The solution remained on the stirplate for another 2 days before I cooled it in the refrigerator and let it settle.
I poured the liquid off, leaving the "washed" yeast at the bottom of the flask.
In order to easily pour the yeast, I added just a little bit of sterilized (boiled and cooled) water and swirled the flask. I wound up with two vials like this:
Hope this helps clear up the process. Sorry if that was a bit of a long post.
First I harvested some of the yeast/trub cake at the bottom of the primary fermenter, put it into a sterile White Labs vial, and let it settle.
Then I made a one cup starter in a 1L Erlenmeyer flask with 1 oz of light DME and 1/4 tsp of ID Carlson's Yeast Energizer (boiled and cooled). I shook the top third of the harvest back into solution, trying to avoid disturbing the coagulated protein mass at the bottom. I pitched that top third into my 1 cup starter and placed it on my stirplate overnight.
I stepped the starter up to 3 cups by adding 2 cups of water boiled with 2 oz of light DME and 1/2 tsp of the yeast nutrient. The solution remained on the stirplate for another 2 days before I cooled it in the refrigerator and let it settle.
I poured the liquid off, leaving the "washed" yeast at the bottom of the flask.
In order to easily pour the yeast, I added just a little bit of sterilized (boiled and cooled) water and swirled the flask. I wound up with two vials like this:
Hope this helps clear up the process. Sorry if that was a bit of a long post.
Forgot...I did not use an acid wash in the process above. I am reasonably assured of my sanitation and I wound up with a pretty homogenous solution.
Grimsawyer
Well-Known Member
I saw on a flier/etc... at my LHBS that the Rogue brewery is getting together with WYeast and selling it's PAC MAN yeast from september through october. Limited availablity of their yeast strain. My brain instantly thought of this thread. Sure, saving a few bucks and reuse of yeast is fun, but to do it to a yeast that you can't get all the time would be really sweet!(Dead Guy Ale clone HERE I COME!!!!) Also when I was there I skimmed an article on freezing yeast. It says that if you just toss it in the freezer it will rupture the cells of the yeast killing it all unless you add your yeast to a 30% solution of glycerine to prevent that from happening. Think I might be making a stirr plate soon, playing with some flame and goofin with starters and yeast propagation, just got to get AG capable first.... (think I am noticing an off taste that you can't aviod with extract. I'm not sure if there is one but there is one flavor that is the same in all my brews that isn't in an AG brew I had a few days ago.... I swear it's cause all I have done is extract. someone please tell me I'm not crazy. hehehe, well, for thinking that anyhow. Everyone knows I'm buckets of crackers!) 
Think I might be making a stirr plate soon, playing with some flame and goofin with starters and yeast propagation, just got to get AG capable first.... (think I am noticing an off taste that you can't aviod with extract. I'm not sure if there is one but there is one flavor that is the same in all my brews that isn't in an AG brew I had a few days ago.... I swear it's cause all I have done is extract. someone please tell me I'm not crazy. hehehe, well, for thinking that anyhow. Everyone knows I'm buckets of crackers!) 
chillHayze
Well-Known Member
Grimsawyer said:
There was a post above by runhard reguarding this. I would be interested in more information, myself.
Grimsawyer said:
There is a slight "twang" associated with extract brewing. The better your methods are, the easier it is to minimize this effect. But even with the best methods it remains slightly.
Todd
Well-Known Member
Yuri_Rage said:I was reading this the other day, and it seemed there was a bit of confusion about yeast washing, so I took some pics of the process I used for some White Labs WLP029 German Ale/Kolsch yeast. Sterilization is KEY! I use StarSan primarily, wear rubber gloves, flame the mouths of all glass containers, and avoid breathing directly into or onto any of the equipment. Here goes:
First I harvested some of the yeast/trub cake at the bottom of the primary fermenter, put it into a sterile White Labs vial, and let it settle.
Then I made a one cup starter in a 1L Erlenmeyer flask with 1 oz of light DME and 1/4 tsp of ID Carlson's Yeast Energizer (boiled and cooled). I shook the top third of the harvest back into solution, trying to avoid disturbing the coagulated protein mass at the bottom. I pitched that top third into my 1 cup starter and placed it on my stirplate overnight.
I stepped the starter up to 3 cups by adding 2 cups of water boiled with 2 oz of light DME and 1/2 tsp of the yeast nutrient. The solution remained on the stirplate for another 2 days before I cooled it in the refrigerator and let it settle.
I poured the liquid off, leaving the "washed" yeast at the bottom of the flask.
In order to easily pour the yeast, I added just a little bit of sterilized (boiled and cooled) water and swirled the flask. I wound up with two vials like this:
Hope this helps clear up the process. Sorry if that was a bit of a long post.
That stirplate really worked wonders, I just did a traditional starter, I did shake it frequently, and I got about half of what you did. I need to get one of those stir plates..
chillHayze said:
Found this searching the web.http://www.schwedhelm.net/brew/yeast_harv_freeze.html
I plan on making a mega crapton of the rogue yeast and freezing it.
I don't see why not.ilikebeer said:
I might have to try that freezing technique mentioned above. On the other hand, I've been sitting on a vial of harvested/washed yeast since July, and I made a starter with it last night. I opened the vial too quickly and most of the contents wound up all over my hands and in the sink. I poured the remnants into a 750mL starter and fired up the stir plate. It went nuts! The krausen climbed up and out of the flask, and it's bubbling like mad.
Evan!
Well-Known Member
Alright, maybe I'll take a pic tonite and post it tomorrow, but I need some further assistance on this yeast washing thing. I am trying to wash and harvest my Belgian Abbey yeast, so I sanitized a big ass honey jar, and sanitized the rim of the carboy, swirled it around (there was quite a bit of trub!) and poured it into the jar.
Two days later, I don't have these three layers...just a whole bunch of fallen solids, and about 2-3" of liquids. Should I agitate this mixture to try to get more yeast separation? I just don't know where the yeast is in this stratification. Are they in the liquid on top? Or are they still mixed in with the trub?
Two days later, I don't have these three layers...just a whole bunch of fallen solids, and about 2-3" of liquids. Should I agitate this mixture to try to get more yeast separation? I just don't know where the yeast is in this stratification. Are they in the liquid on top? Or are they still mixed in with the trub?
Todd
Well-Known Member
Evan! said:
The liquid at the top is beer, the settled part is yeast and trub. I've yet to be able to get any separation. I think I need to dilute it more. The trub should settle in a matter of minutes, it is just slightly darker than the yeast. The yeast is White. Drain the beer and try adding some sterile water and shake it up again. It is possible that you don't have much trub, if you were careful with the hops.
Evan!
Well-Known Member
Some of my hops were in pellet form---so I'm betting that there's some hops residuals. I'll try your suggestion. Thanks!
boo boo
Well-Known Member
GrimsawyerStarters... can you use corn sugar instead of dme? (corn sugar is $4 for 5 lbs where DME is $5 a pound) How much water do you use? ?[/quote said:
homebrewer_99
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I always add 1/2-3/4 gal of water to dilute it so it seperates better.Todd said:
Alright I know this is an old thread but a lot of good questions on yeast washing. I have another. I washed a batch several months ago but apparently I did not decant the wort enough so it fermented a bit. The jar of slurry I opened was carbonated. Is this bad or could it still be rehydrated?
Six posts above yours, Yuri Rage sounded like he lost half of his vial to carbonation, he sounded pretty happy even so, 750 mil starter took off great.
Bumping an old thread, I know....the thread is new to me
I'll be Home Brew Talk's newest Yeastie Washie
bierzwinski
Well-Known Member
What does the stir plate do? Why is it necessary/better??
When you make a starter without a stir plate you are supposed to shake it to break it up and get it to stay loose. Stir plate keeps movement and the yeast never clumps. I am a newb but I believe I read that it helps get oxygen and sugar to the yeast, and the yeast thrives better when not clumped on bottom.
bierzwinski
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply.
can i add a question to that?
When you poor new wort on to old settled yeast - trub - do you shake up the whole carboy after you poor it on?
If i don't have a blow tube am i going to have a big mess?
can i add a question to that?
When you poor new wort on to old settled yeast - trub - do you shake up the whole carboy after you poor it on?
If i don't have a blow tube am i going to have a big mess?
If you are pouring a new batch onto an existing yeast cake, again I am a newbie at this, I would think that you would want to pour it hard. I always try and introduce oxygen when getting the yeast to start up fast. I have never used an old yeast cake though. Definitely do a blow off, I read several posts that the yeast cake has healthy, multiplied yeast colonies that sometimes kicks off in an hour or two, visiously!
Side note, I also read that you want to do a darker/heavier beer on a yeast cake. A used cake had attributes of the beer it made. So if you make a dark roasty beer and then use cake to make a lighter one, the roasty dark attributes will show up in second beer.
Side note, I also read that you want to do a darker/heavier beer on a yeast cake. A used cake had attributes of the beer it made. So if you make a dark roasty beer and then use cake to make a lighter one, the roasty dark attributes will show up in second beer.
bierzwinski
Well-Known Member
Thanks. I am just going to try this and see what happens. (need to get a blow tube though) I don't have an oxygen tank, so i usually shake my wort and actually i usually shake it after i have pitched the yeast. One other thought i had was to see if i could get half of the cake out with sterile water ... like dump it in, swirl it around a little and dump some of it off... but maybe that is not necessary. I was thinking this so i could avoid a mess.
Thanks again. I had read some of that about the yeast attributes as well. Noted. I also read that the cake could be used 5 - 6 times. Did you find that too?
Thanks again. I had read some of that about the yeast attributes as well. Noted. I also read that the cake could be used 5 - 6 times. Did you find that too?
McGarnigle
Well-Known Member
If you are pouring new wort onto a full yeast cake, you probably don't have to worry too much about shaking the pail. You're overpitching so much that the yeast will fly regardless.
I personally don't pitch on the whole cake. I do what you mention regarding sterile water. I've used a sanitized ladle to remove yeast and put it into the new carboy (i.e., I don't use the same fermenter twice in a row). Just don't water it down too much, lest you be pulling out mostly water and not yeast.
As far as 5-6 times is concerned, I thought it was more like 3-4, but have never gone more than twice myself just because i like to mix things up.
I personally don't pitch on the whole cake. I do what you mention regarding sterile water. I've used a sanitized ladle to remove yeast and put it into the new carboy (i.e., I don't use the same fermenter twice in a row). Just don't water it down too much, lest you be pulling out mostly water and not yeast.
As far as 5-6 times is concerned, I thought it was more like 3-4, but have never gone more than twice myself just because i like to mix things up.
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