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Old 08-15-2013, 08:00 PM   #1
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Default What's the point of a hop "flavor addition" in an IPA?

Does a traditional "flavor addition" (like at 10-20 minutes) actually give you more flavor than an "aroma addition" (like 5-flameout) or is the "flavor addition" just giving you less aroma because more of the most volatile essential oils are being boiled off but the more stable flavor compounds are sticking around? If you're just getting less aroma but the same amount of flavor (or actually less flavor because the more stable flavor compounds are still being boiled off, just more slowly) then what's the point of doing any flavor/aroma addition before flameout in a beer like an IPA? Does boiling the hops for 10-20 minutes enhance the flavor in some way? It seems like to maximize the flavor and aroma you would add only at flameout. Am I missing something? What do you all think?

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Old 08-15-2013, 08:07 PM   #2
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I've often wondered the same. Looking forward to someone smarter than me enlightening us.

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Old 08-15-2013, 08:09 PM   #3
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Yeah, I'm gonna sit and watch too.

My feeling is that ten minutes is going to have the same effect as flameout.

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Old 08-15-2013, 08:22 PM   #4
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" Am I missing something?"

Yeah, a couple hundred years of brewers experimenting with their hop addition timing and seeing what tastes best. The flavor and aroma compounds produced in the kettle aren't particularly well understood from a scientific standpoint, but there is a long history of practical experience with the flavor profiles.

Of course, everyone has different tastes, so feel free to drop those additions and see if you like it better.

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Old 08-15-2013, 08:26 PM   #5
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I think there is a definite difference in an IPA that has 60/15/0 hops vs 60/0.

I like them both, but it seems like the 15-20 minute hops give another dimension of depth and flavor not present with all bittering and aroma hops.

Hops isomerization and utilization isn't understood perfectly even by scientists- so I don't have a good explanation, except for the alpha acids isomerizing more at the 15 minute addition that at flame out.

For many IPAs, I do even more additions and do 60/15/10/5/0/dryhop and I think there is a great depth of hops flavor and aroma in those beers. Of course, I've never done the exact same beer with 60/0/dryhop so I can't say that it would be markedly different if you compared them head-to-head although my gut says they would.

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Old 08-15-2013, 08:52 PM   #6
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The point of "Flavor"?

hmmmm........AHA!!!

I prescribe one Bell's TWO HEARTED ALE!!!!

NOW.

OH hell. You have tasted sierra nevada? Tons of hop "Flavor".

Bittering additions are just that. BITTER, no real flavor.

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Old 08-15-2013, 08:56 PM   #7
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In absence of experience, experiments!

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Old 08-15-2013, 09:11 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheezydemon3 View Post
Bittering additions are just that. BITTER, no real flavor.
Debatable...

However, the point still stands - you're going to get different contributions by adding hops at different times.

an interesting experiment would be to make an IPA 3 ways:
60-15-0
60-15
60-0
Should give you a good example of what you get with everything together, and then the contributions of just flavor hopping and just aroma hopping...
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Old 08-15-2013, 09:32 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billl View Post
" Am I missing something?"

Yeah, a couple hundred years of brewers experimenting with their hop addition timing and seeing what tastes best. The flavor and aroma compounds produced in the kettle aren't particularly well understood from a scientific standpoint, but there is a long history of practical experience with the flavor profiles.

Of course, everyone has different tastes, so feel free to drop those additions and see if you like it better.
I get the point of flavor additions in other styles where you want a bit of flavor and maybe some aroma or no aroma. But I'm talking about the relatively recent styles (relative to the hundreds of years of beer history) like American IPA where you're looking to maximize flavor and aroma.

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Originally Posted by Yooper View Post
I think there is a definite difference in an IPA that has 60/15/0 hops vs 60/0.

I like them both, but it seems like the 15-20 minute hops give another dimension of depth and flavor not present with all bittering and aroma hops.

Hops isomerization and utilization isn't understood perfectly even by scientists- so I don't have a good explanation, except for the alpha acids isomerizing more at the 15 minute addition that at flame out.

For many IPAs, I do even more additions and do 60/15/10/5/0/dryhop and I think there is a great depth of hops flavor and aroma in those beers. Of course, I've never done the exact same beer with 60/0/dryhop so I can't say that it would be markedly different if you compared them head-to-head although my gut says they would.
Yeah I guess there could be a different depth of flavors, but just thinking about it, it seems like if you combined all of those additions into one flameout addition you would get even more flavor and a lot more aroma from the same amount of hops. I've never brewed a beer with only 60/0/dryhop either though, which is why I was asking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheezydemon3 View Post
The point of "Flavor"?

hmmmm........AHA!!!

I prescribe one Bell's TWO HEARTED ALE!!!!

NOW.

OH hell. You have tasted sierra nevada? Tons of hop "Flavor".

Bittering additions are just that. BITTER, no real flavor.
That's not what I'm asking at all. I guess you only read the title? I wouldn't mind taking you up on the Two Hearted though!
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Old 08-15-2013, 09:36 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterj View Post



Yeah I guess there could be a different depth of flavors, but just thinking about it, it seems like if you combined all of those additions into one flameout addition you would get even more flavor and a lot more aroma from the same amount of hops. I've never brewed a beer with only 60/0/dryhop either though, which is why I was asking.
But boiling changes the hops oils- that's the whole point of a 15 minute addition. It means that they are not fully isomerized, but partially, and it changes the way they are in the wort and in the final beer. They are not the same as a 0 minute hop addition- that is the point.
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