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Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > General Techniques > Using Olive oil instead of Oxygen
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:39 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by ianmatth View Post
I think the problem with the above experiment is that you are multiplying the starters, and IMO that adds another variable that could affect cell count.
Come to think of it, I don't think that multiplying the smaller starters is even necessary. If a starter is adequate for a large batch, it should be adequate for that same batch divided into smaller portions. You're right, it could affect cell count, and it does seem redundant now.
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Old 02-06-2013, 04:11 AM   #252
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What's actually needed is something like a minimum of 100 test split batches, possibly many more, spanning a variety of styles and recipes brewed on a variety of systems. Each of the control (traditional O2 infusion) and experimental(OO) half batches would need to be put through a randomized double blind study with certified judges picking out and rating which have better aroma, flavor, etc. Those data would then need to be analyzed and the aggregate of one group statistically shown to be significantly better at some aspect of the scoring.

Something like that will birth a new understanding of better brewing techniques.

Until then, it's true believers fiddling around because it's an enticing idea and skeptics sticking with what they know because there's no actual reason to change.

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Old 02-06-2013, 01:54 PM   #253
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What's actually needed is something like a minimum of 100 test split batches, possibly many more, spanning a variety of styles and recipes brewed on a variety of systems. Each of the control (traditional O2 infusion) and experimental(OO) half batches would need to be put through a randomized double blind study with certified judges picking out and rating which have better aroma, flavor, etc. Those data would then need to be analyzed and the aggregate of one group statistically shown to be significantly better at some aspect of the scoring.

Something like that will birth a new understanding of better brewing techniques.

Until then, it's true believers fiddling around because it's an enticing idea and skeptics sticking with what they know because there's no actual reason to change.
Hey, you've described no chill with that statement. No chill can't possibly work because you'll get infected wort, you won't get chill break, you'll have impossible amounts of DMS, etc but the Aussies use it regularly, store wort for months before pitching, and get good beer too. Could OO be beset by the same fears as no chill?
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:28 PM   #254
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This thread has gone full retard. I'm outta here.

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Old 02-10-2013, 04:34 PM   #255
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One problem you are going to have splitting up the yeast into equal batches. When you have a solution of yeast cells that equates to millions/billons of cells/mL, very small measurement differences (such as when you divide a yeast starter into 2 equal halves by eye, for example) result in huge differences in yeast number.

Additionally, even small differences in yeast numbers turn into huge differences in final yeast numbers after they have divided a number of times (as they tend to do in beer wort). See logarithmic growth curves, 2^n rule, etc.

The take away is if a difference is seen in your experiment you cannot rule out that each wort received the exact number of yeast cells. There is no way you can split a batch of starter and be sure that each one has a similar # of cells in it, unfortunately.

Second, your research plan follows Grady Hull's thesis, of which there is critical piece missing: it is unclear if oxygenation (with an method) is required in the first place, in the worts they studied. They did not include a wort that received no treatment whatsoever to test this. Their assertion is that OO has an effect because it was only minor differences between it and their typically oxygenation step (diffusion stone). Once again, this whole idea hinges on the assumption that the typical oxygenation step has an effect in the first place!!!

Let assume for a moment that adding supplemental oxygen does not have an effect on fermentation in the setup that Grady Hull used in his thesis studies. In this case, would you then see a difference in OO vs. their typical oxygen setup? No, because oxygenation doesn't have an effect in the first place, anything you add to the wort (provided it doesn't decrease yeast population) would not look any different when compared to it.

IN other words, their conclusion is based on an untested assumption...just like your experiment is. Ironically, both your experiment and Grady Hull's/New Belgium aren't being done correctly for the same reason....neither of you want to waste beer and therefore aren't willing to dedicate a batch of wort to a true negative control!
Broadbill - thanks for being the voice of negativity. Glad to have you. But please think of it this way - its an interesting idea that is fairly well proven will not hurt your beer. Now a few of us would like to test if we can make better beer with this, rather than adding O2 adding devices.

For your comment that the "no oxygen at all" needs to be tested, I agree. However, it is tough to add no oxygen. I'd love to have a way to measure PPM of O2 in the solution. But I can't. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. One thing I'll say though, is its pretty well documented you need some oxygen. So your assumption that you can make beer with zero oxygen is pretty well proven otherwise. I think a test of splashing vs OO would show better results in high gravity beers, where oxygenation and proper yeast growth & count are more important.

Proper # of cells in each batch - yes you are right. Not spending thousands of dollars on a lab for this testing. I did completely stir it up, pouring into two measuring devices for equal amounts of starter wort/yeast. All of the yeast was stirred up into the solution. Are these still exactly equal? No. Is it as close as I can get, and probably +/- 5%? Yes.

Like I'v said, I plan to keep playing with this over the next year. I've even picked up an aquarium pump, so I can compare splashing vs OO, and the pump vs OO. I'll do this on high gravity and low gravity beers.

I won't post any results for a long time, gather some results.

Feel free to run some tests yourself to provide analysis - rather than to continue to be the voice of negativity. I'm sure your comments are missed on glass vs plastic or other discussions that are less interesting and more objective.
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:44 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Hanso View Post
What's actually needed is something like a minimum of 100 test split batches, possibly many more, spanning a variety of styles and recipes brewed on a variety of systems. Each of the control (traditional O2 infusion) and experimental(OO) half batches would need to be put through a randomized double blind study with certified judges picking out and rating which have better aroma, flavor, etc. Those data would then need to be analyzed and the aggregate of one group statistically shown to be significantly better at some aspect of the scoring.

Something like that will birth a new understanding of better brewing techniques.

Until then, it's true believers fiddling around because it's an enticing idea and skeptics sticking with what they know because there's no actual reason to change.
You are right. I'm debating starting a new thread, to detail out the experiment to run, and ask that if people test it, to post the results in a format I can throw into Excel. Start to really gather some data. The test results are too subjective, but could still be included. (Not necessarily BJCP taste tests, but any anecdotal home taste tests, over time, would be accurate enough for me).
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:46 PM   #257
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This thread has gone full retard. I'm outta here.
I read your post first today, and thought "what's this jerk's problem?". Then I read the past week or two of posts and agreed with you.
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Old 02-10-2013, 06:24 PM   #258
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Luke, remember that even as important as the experiment design is the testing design. Make sure to use a pool of testers and do a blind triangle tasting.

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Old 02-10-2013, 06:56 PM   #259
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Luke, remember that even as important as the experiment design is the testing design. Make sure to use a pool of testers and do a blind triangle tasting.
Agreed. Will try to measure two outputs: FG and Taste. FG is easy to compare. And my expectatations is that, if OO makes any impact, it will be more measureable or impactful for higher gravity beers. This may well even be a linear relationship, of higher OG to impact of FG by OO vs No Aeration or splashing. (Splashing will only get you about 2 ppm O2, and will probably be the most recorded test against OO)

For taste, I'll ask that at the very least, the tester creates a blind taste test for themself. So everyone doing any testing should have a blind taste test result from one person. For those that go above and beyond, having multiple people do it, I'll have to determine how to weigh the results. In a way that I can accurately graph this.
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Old 02-10-2013, 07:02 PM   #260
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Make sure it's not only blind, but a triangle test. That's important. If they can't pick out the different beer, than any other results from that taster are invalid.

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