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Old 02-04-2013, 05:51 PM   #241
broadbill
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Originally Posted by agenthucky View Post
Time is never wasted trying something new, and who are you to value their time anyhow?

How full of yourself and your ideas you must be to be that audacious
Its a waste of time if its already been done and the results are.....meh.

I don't care if people waste their time replicating it, I have an issue when they post all of this anecdotal BS, expecting us to buy it without question.

Yeah, it would be great if this worked and it worked well for homebrewers. But I've yet to see any indication that it does. Until then, why bother? I can do any number of things in my brewing process that don't make a sh*t's bit of difference. Why do this?
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Old 02-04-2013, 05:53 PM   #242
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Thanks for the English lesson. Maybe since you seem like the smart person around these parts, care to take a shot at some of the points I've raised relative to OO vs. oxygen addition?

Otherwise you come off as just another wanker who has nothing important to say so they point out spelling and grammar errors.

This is getting out of hand, but you must of missed my responses to your points. Perhaps you were too busy berating people to notice.

Actually there was never a spelling error, or a grammar problem, just pointing out how you have to supplement your argument by adding in unnecessary descriptives. For some reason you need to make people feel bad so you feel validated. We have all tried something, for the sake of trying something. This forum is the place to discuss it. End of story.
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Old 02-04-2013, 05:56 PM   #243
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I get it, these aren't scientific experiments.
This is bullsh*t too, and a cop out for you. Scientific experiments are indeed possible at the homebrewing level. Denny's friend Vance did one such experiment and Denny posted the link to it, pages ago.

It was a good study, better than Grady Hull's thesis work. Maybe you should check it out instead of shooting off about people grammatical errors.
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Old 02-04-2013, 05:59 PM   #244
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This is getting out of hand, but you must of missed my responses to your points. Perhaps you were too busy berating people to notice.
You called me an ass, and I'm the one berating people? Got it.

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Originally Posted by agenthucky View Post
Actually there was never a spelling error, or a grammar problem, just pointing out how you have to supplement your argument by adding in unnecessary descriptives.
Sorry that I'm using too big of words for you.

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Originally Posted by agenthucky View Post
For some reason you need to make people feel bad so you feel validated. We have all tried something, for the sake of trying something. This forum is the place to discuss it. End of story.
...and we are discussing....only one of us isn't saying anything meaningful, somebody's best shot at discussing is pointing out I used "ironically" in the wrong sense of the word.
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Old 02-04-2013, 06:14 PM   #245
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There you go, Broadbill. You’ve drawn a conclusion based on anecdotal evidence.

I didn’t restate my conclusions, if that’s what you mean. I’m pretty sure they’re back there somewhere, if you care to look.

The point I was trying to make was about the value of experimental evidence, even in less than well controlled studies. especially when there’s a bunch of it.

If fifty people tell me they love a certain restaurant, it’s still possible that it sucks. Damned unlikely though.

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Old 02-04-2013, 06:25 PM   #246
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There you go, Broadbill. You’ve drawn a conclusion based on anecdotal evidence.

I didn’t restate my conclusions, if that’s what you mean. I’m pretty sure they’re back there somewhere, if you care to look.

The point I was trying to make was about the value of experimental evidence, even in less than well controlled studies. especially when there’s a bunch of it.

If fifty people tell me they love a certain restaurant, it’s still possible that it sucks. Damned unlikely though.
I went back and read it. Back then you were asking for how to properly do the experiment because it was flawed (by your own admission). Now you make it sound that it is solid enough evidence to convince everybody on here that it works. Which is it?
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Old 02-04-2013, 06:30 PM   #247
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holy **** people. chill out.

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Old 02-04-2013, 06:44 PM   #248
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Here's what I think about all this:

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Old 02-04-2013, 06:57 PM   #249
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I have an idea for an experiment. I will be moving and doing intensive home renovations for the next few months, so I may not get to it for a while, but here it is:

1) Divide a large yeast starter into 16 smaller ones, measuring as precisely as possible, and begin multiplying 16 new starters
2) Divide the starters into 2 groups of 8 starters each, shuffling them so that the groups don't contain starters that were divided one after the other.
3) Add olive oil to 1 of the 2 groups.
4) Purge 16 sanitized 1/2 gallon jugs with CO2 and plug to keep in CO2
5) After boiling and chilling a 6+ gallon wort, divide equally into the jugs, taking care not to agitate the wort.
6) Shuffle the jugs of wort and divide into 2 groups of 8
7) Aerate 2 of the four groups of wort with an airstone or other method
8) Pitch the yeast into the wort to make 4 each of the following 4 combinations
---a) olive oil + aeration
---b) olive oil + no aeration
---c) no olive oil + aeration
---d) no olive oil + no aeration
9) Add airlocks and ferment as usual, labelling groups and shuffling them together to account for any small differences in temperature in different parts of the room.

This way, you have a control group with no aeration or olive oil, as well as a group with both methods to see if there is any additional benefit in using both. You could even make a lid for the brew kettle with notches for siphon/chiller lines and purge the kettle with CO2 so any oxygen that was driven off while boiling wont be reabsorbed. The OG reading could be taken from the original wort or if you really want to be anal, from each of the sixteen samples. During active fermentaion, record daily observations of each sample such as krausen depth, airlock bubble frequency, etc. Also watch trub depth, and record when each sample begins to flocculate and clarify. Check gravity readings at the end, bottle and perform blind testing with a group of people, each privately recording their own subjective observations.

Having randomized test groups instead of single samples for each technique would help minimize any affect of minute differences in yeast cell count in the starters. Doing the experiment this way gives a lot more numbers to compare: min, max, mean, median, mode and range for each measurement involved. The more test samples in each group, the less significant the variations become to the end result, the more accurate and objective the experiment can be.

I must admit, I haven't read every last post in this thread yet, so someone may have proposed an experiment like this already. If so, ignore this post. It seemed to me like the hang-up was over not being able to accurately measure the cell count in single samples, whereas using randomized test groups to a large extent compensates for lack of high tech lab equipment.

Like I said, I'll barely have any time to brew in the next while so I probably wont be able to tackle anything like this at least until the summer, so feel free to beat me to it and post your results. In fact the more people who do an experiment like this, the more (scientifically) conclusive our results will be (assuming there is a positive correllation between our results).

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Old 02-05-2013, 12:18 PM   #250
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I think the problem with the above experiment is that you are multiplying the starters, and IMO that adds another variable that could affect cell count. In fact, I think Luke2080 has a good experiment and disagree with broadbill's point. If someone made a starter and decanted it to a slurry that is 1 billion cells/ml, if you shake it up and split it immediately it is going to be pretty close to that concentration.

Let's say Luke2080's 10 gallon batch needed 500 billion cells, and he has a 500 ml slurry at 1 billion cells/ml in a 1000 ml bell jar that he is going to split into two 250 ml slurries each in a 500 ml bell jar. I think it's pretty safe to say that each one is close enough to 250 billion cells each. If he wants he could even keep shaking it and go back and forth pouring a little bit each time between the two 500 ml jars to really make sure they have the same cell count. In fact, I think the slurries would be more similar than the two 5 gallons batches because it is a lot easier to get a 500ml slurry homogeneous than it is to get a 10 gallon batch of wort.

Another idea would be to use dry yeast to make sure that cell count was the same, but in that case Luke2080 would have to rehydrate 5-6 hours out and add the OO to one, or make a starter from each, which would add the same variable that I felt was problematic about the above experiment.

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