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Old 01-21-2013, 12:00 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Denny View Post
It seems to me that people keep proving over and over that OO doesn't hurt anything. I'm on board with that. What I'm looking for is evidence that it actually helps.
Don't think you'll get it. There are obviously a few different goals for each of the users. Yours is to see if it will help your brew process, but mine was to make my brew day more convenient. Right now, I'm starting to brew 10 gallon batches without a good aeration system. I can't imagine trying to shake a sanke keg full of 10+ gallons of wort to get a 1.070+ beer enough oxygen.

Until I get an O2 system in place, this seems like a temporary solution to hold me off.
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Old 01-21-2013, 12:28 PM   #202
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My issue with it is the flavor of the OO. I recently tried a west coast ale (brewery to remain nameless) that was fed on EVOO and had another one at a bottle share yesterday that I didn't know was treated with OO.

The problem for me is, the olive taste is present in the final beer. Since I cook with EVOO and have several different varieties in my kitchen, I can generally pick it out and differentiate between different types of cooking oils by taste when i'm out at restaurants.

The taste is just foreign to me in beer and I don't like it. It doesn't belong in the flavor profile of most beer styles (vegetable beer the only exception) and I find it disgusting when mixing with hops flavors in a beer like an IPA.

I'm now marking any EVOO beers I come across in untapp'd to avoid buying them in the future.

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Old 01-21-2013, 12:32 PM   #203
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If you can taste the actual OO, then way too much was used.

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Old 01-21-2013, 12:54 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Haputanlas View Post
Don't think you'll get it. There are obviously a few different goals for each of the users. Yours is to see if it will help your brew process, but mine was to make my brew day more convenient. Right now, I'm starting to brew 10 gallon batches without a good aeration system. I can't imagine trying to shake a sanke keg full of 10+ gallons of wort to get a 1.070+ beer enough oxygen.

Until I get an O2 system in place, this seems like a temporary solution to hold me off.
Do you know for a fact that added oxygenation/aeration is needed in the first place? You might be surprised by an experiment where you brew 10 gallons, and shake one 5 gallon sample and not shake the other.

You might not additional oxygenation/aeration for a variety of reasons. Your system and/or process might introduce enough in and by itself (something that is overlooked by alot of homebrewers). You might do a good job of yeast propagation, which minimizes the amount of aerobic respiration/reproduction that needs to happen in the wort. Anecdotal

This gets back to my main "beef" with the grady hull thesis: There was few differences between traditionally oxygenated and OO treated worts, but what wasn't shown is if either of these were any different than if they had not treating the wort at all. The conclusion in the thesis on the effect of OO hinges on the assumption that traditional oxygenation has an effect beyond not treating the wort at all, which the study did not demonstrate.

I know what the conventional wisdom dictates regarding dissolved oxygen in brewing, I understand the biochemical basis for it....but I sometimes question the applicability of this knowledge to the homebrew setting.Again, much depends on the brewers process and the recipe....but sweeping generalizations (adding oxygen is necessary for all worts) usually aren't correct either.
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:03 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Haputanlas View Post
Don't think you'll get it. There are obviously a few different goals for each of the users. Yours is to see if it will help your brew process, but mine was to make my brew day more convenient. Right now, I'm starting to brew 10 gallon batches without a good aeration system. I can't imagine trying to shake a sanke keg full of 10+ gallons of wort to get a 1.070+ beer enough oxygen.

Until I get an O2 system in place, this seems like a temporary solution to hold me off.
You need one of these....

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Old 01-21-2013, 05:11 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by seabass07 View Post
If you can taste the actual OO, then way too much was used.
Agreed.

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Originally Posted by broadbill View Post
Do you know for a fact that added oxygenation/aeration is needed in the first place? You might be surprised by an experiment where you brew 10 gallons, and shake one 5 gallon sample and not shake the other.
I believe it. I've brewed batches before where I know I underaerated and they still came out quite good. Batches where I didn't have fermentation temp control, but aerated thoroughly, suffered far worse than those without aeration.

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You need one of these....

Very good idea. As long as this will fit down a Sanke keg opening, that might be just what I need.
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:14 PM   #207
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It fits in a carboy, so there's a pretty good chance it would fit in a Sanke.

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Old 01-22-2013, 01:02 AM   #208
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Interesting....don't think I'll try it though

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Old 01-22-2013, 05:31 AM   #209
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Just used Olive Oil again in a batch today.

Once I get that drill attachment Denny recommended, I'll try a three way split on a batch (Aerate / OO / Nothing)

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Old 01-22-2013, 08:21 PM   #210
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Not the most beastly thread I've ever trudged through but one of the more interesting and equally frustrating. I read through the thread, the Grady Hull paper, as well as the experiment by Vance and as with everyone I got a very different take on the assertions.

The Grady Hull (referred to as Hull from here-on out) was fascinating but incredibly onesided in what it was testing for. It did however raise the question of whether the process could be adopted in other areas which many seemed to jump to moreso and missed the point of the original paper.

On the two sides of the fence seem to be (at least most recently) Wrynne and Denny so let me first start with Wrynne's (and if I screw this up I humbly apologize but that's a lotta data to absorb in quick fashion ).

Wrynne:
If I remember correctly Wrynne implied that there wasn't any harm that could come from adding the Olive Oil of which I'd disagree and point to numerous points that pointed out a key example of one of the potential problems: Sterility/Sanitation. More than a few people reported contaminated batches when using OO. Does that mean it's clearly from the OO? No, but it doesn't mean that it isn't either.

My biggest question on the pro-side of the spectrum is the assertion over whether or not the oil can be heated. I do not recall seeing anyone naysay the heating of the oil in any of the groups (if I missed it please point it out if you would be so kind) and I only saw it posted as a bad thing here. Yes, excessive heat in olive oil can damage the Oleic that founded the Hull hypothesis in the first place but we're talking about heat nearing the smoke point which in the case of EVOO is still at least 300 degrees (well above that of boiling) and in somewhat more processed OO it's around 420 degrees. Neither of these should be even remotely approached if boiled in the water used be it the batch's wort or wort for a starter.


Denny:
I do not enjoy the results from using oxygen as opposed to agitation. As such I do not have plans on buying another oxygenation system (although I do kind of like the airpump/filter method's levels). Normally though I just shake the crap out of things and gain plenty of oxygen from the dump. That said, I don't like the drill stir as I've personally had really bad luck with contamination using them and while that may be purely my fault, it still doesn't give me any desire to use them. This could be the case with using Oil as well but if heated I don't see why it would be as likely. That said, I did not care for either of the two batches I simply forgot to oxygenate more than what they got during the siphoning process (both batches were due to being out of oxygen and I just pitched and locked em up out of frustration) but they were most definitely both beer and neither were stuck.

While I don't disagree with your assertions about people's results not being scientifically viable, I would point out that they seem to dismiss the possiblity of people gaining benefits they believe in which also may be mental aspects but who the hell cares as long as they're enjoying it. Coincidently, I let my daughter push my batches over to their resting spot on a dolly on the faint idea that that little bit of extra agitation puts them over the edge. It's stupid but it makes me feel better. Vance's experiment (this screws with my head every time I read it as I share the name), while mostly circumstantial and somewhat incomplete without the non-O2/OO batch did seem to consistently imply that you would get a slightly different flavor profile (albeit minor) which might be preferable to some. Outside of a few people that seem to share it as gospel though I really don't see anything being hurt here either way so long as you're participating in this great hobby. Don't get me wrong, I think I got your point but I didn't really take it that way until I'd read it a few times.


Noone in particular:
Further, OO was chosen because of the particular type of monounsaturated fat it contains (Oleic) so I don't really see why the somewhat more processed version should be bad for this. This should solve the problem of the person concerned about taste added by the Oil itself but if I remember correctly they also suggested that similar results might be achieved with alternative high monounsaturated fats such as Canola oil (high Oleic as well as moderate linoleic acid) which is slightly less ideal than Olive but still pretty high up on that chain. A possibly better alternative would be the high Oleic varieties of Sunflower oil (my wife uses this for her salads) which is much higher in Oleic acid than Olive Oil by about 15-20% if memory serves but more importantly it doesn't have that vegetable-ish taste. It does have a very low smoke point which is around 225 I think but that's still reasonably above boiling. I'm personally considering going this route with my next batch to see if I like the results but I think I'll wait til late in the boil to add it (at least unless someone can point to a place that says heating below the smoke point destroys the substance that it is suggested to possibly aid with anyway).

If nothing else, I used to enjoy several of the New Belgium offerings around the timeframe of this guys thesis. I don't know or remember anyone saying they definitively used it around that timeframe or not but I wonder if it's the little bit of oomph that's clearly missing from their current offerings. Poor case scenario is I waste a batch or two of potentially good beer to make subpar beer. Worst case scenario is it's undrinkable which doesn't seem too terribly likely judging from the great number of responses. In any event, where's the harm in developing another superstition or two?

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