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Old 12-12-2012, 08:21 PM   #181
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Regardless of what the original studies were done for, this is what most people here are using it for. If you want results for zero aeration + OO vs oxygen, then just read the original study. Your answer is already in there. It works, but it's a bit slower and increases esters. Instead of repeating the original experiment, why not adapt this to your method and see if it helps or even makes a difference.
The whole first part of this discussion was if it made any difference at a homebrew level. Adding in fractions of a drop is a different ratio than was used in the experiment. The problem with adapting to your method is that everyone brews differently. If person X says they did step Y and it improved their beer it is not repeatable by anyone else reading this.

I have adopted this, and provided my results. I did both, and it helped, but the beer never lasted that long so results were speculative. it's not definitive because it wasn't controlled.

Though you have a good point about ergosterol
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:48 PM   #182
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I understand how the thread started out, but most of us introduce o2 into our beer accidentally. Most of us, it seems, dont use pure o2 or an aeration stone. So consider this an alternate discussion about using oo to suppliment shaking.

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Old 12-12-2012, 10:17 PM   #183
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I understand how the thread started out, but most of us introduce o2 into our beer accidentally. Most of us, it seems, dont use pure o2 or an aeration stone. So consider this an alternate discussion about using oo to suppliment shaking.
Agreed, most homebrewers don't need the shelf life new belgium was trying to achieve either. Notice the topic of this thread "Using Olive Oil Instead of Oxygen". It's what attracts people to this thread.

I would just like to see this become a viable alternative to aerating in the brewing world. Then you'll see experiments to compare shaking, stones, OO much like we already have now. Until it is excepted, and written about in books it will just be a side discussion.

I hate to argue about this as it's mostly irrelevant but I am also perturbed by threads that have 50+ pages. When you get to that point questions are asked over and over again by people not reading through the bulk of the non important posts (see the pikachu comment). If there is an end goal, it won't be reached by watering down the thread.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:55 PM   #184
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Yeah I thought that too, SeaBass07, that we should be comparing some aeration to some aeration with oil. Problem is, the effect is too subtle to show on a single trial. You might prevent a stuck fermentation or have better stability, but it’s going to be hard to prove.

I was going to repeat that experiment with some double blind tasting with BJCP judges. Now I think it would be inconclusive. As Denny says, ‘Why bother?’

Which reminds me, if Denny thought I was taking a shot at him, I’m sorry. I’m pretty sure he understood what I was saying.

We know oxygen is bad for beer. We know olive oil can substitute for oxygen. I don’t know of any reason to think that it wouldn’t work for a sub-optimally aerated batch. Just the effect would be less. And harder to prove.

The part I don’t understand now is why people don’t want to accept the conclusions of the original experiment.

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Old 12-13-2012, 12:38 AM   #185
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OK,, I've read the thread, and it would seem there are probably some benefits to using OO, with no noted downside.

Based on what I have read, I plan to add a drop (or less) of OO to my fermenter from now on. I'll not make any changes to what I do (splashing and lots of shaking), and see what happens.

I don't expect to see any improvement, but I think I will continue to use it because it may help, provided I don't find anything detrimental that I can contribute to it.

Anyone see any problem with this.

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Old 12-13-2012, 12:40 AM   #186
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The part I don’t understand now is why people don’t want to accept the conclusions of the original experiment.
DITTO!

In addition to that the biggest reason to not use OO would be the effect on head retention. Multiple people have shown this isn't the case though, scientific experiment or not, people have used OO with no ill effects to the head retention. I just think it's the case of people stuck in their ways and believing the old thoughts of all oil is bad for head retention. Being in the tech industry, adapting to new technology and information is crucial to furthering yourself and your work. I'm not saying everyone has to use it to make great beer, but it shouldn't be ignored if it has the potential to make better beer.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:30 AM   #187
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Calder I think you would do better to add 2-3 drops to the starter. In the original experiment they were adding olive oil to the yeast starter 5 hours before pitching. Good for you for having an open mind and actually trying it.

I don’t think it’s just about the head. But on that subject, there’s way more oil in hops than two drops. Also 2 drops in five gallons is like 5 ppb.

I can see why a longer fermentation would be unacceptable to commercial brewers. To us it’s nothing. Slight increase in esters? Hey, if it’s not bananas, sign me up.

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Old 12-13-2012, 02:24 AM   #188
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Calder I think you would do better to add 2-3 drops to the starter. In the original experiment they were adding olive oil to the yeast starter 5 hours before pitching. Good for you for having an open mind and actually trying it.

I don’t think it’s just about the head. But on that subject, there’s way more oil in hops than two drops. Also 2 drops in five gallons is like 5 ppb.

I can see why a longer fermentation would be unacceptable to commercial brewers. To us it’s nothing. Slight increase in esters? Hey, if it’s not bananas, sign me up.
Without going back to find my references, I think I saw that the original use was roughly 1/10th a drop in 5 gallons. My thought was to just dip the end of a sanitized thermometer (or probe of some type) in the oil and then in the cooled wort.

Why the fermenter and not starter? I often just wash yeast and pitch yeast without a starter. Probably use a starter about 25% of the time, the other times are freshly washed yeast. Adding to fermenter makes it consistent and part of my process.
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:25 AM   #189
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Agreed, most homebrewers don't need the shelf life new belgium was trying to achieve either. Notice the topic of this thread "Using Olive Oil Instead of Oxygen". It's what attracts people to this thread.

I would just like to see this become a viable alternative to aerating in the brewing world. Then you'll see experiments to compare shaking, stones, OO much like we already have now. Until it is excepted, and written about in books it will just be a side discussion.

I hate to argue about this as it's mostly irrelevant but I am also perturbed by threads that have 50+ pages. When you get to that point questions are asked over and over again by people not reading through the bulk of the non important posts (see the pikachu comment). If there is an end goal, it won't be reached by watering down the thread.

That pikachu comment had more relevance than most of this thread.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:38 PM   #190
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The part I don’t understand now is why people don’t want to accept the conclusions of the original experiment.
I don't anybody out-rightly rejects the conclusions, it think they are questioning the jump in logic between what how the experiments were done in the thesis and what homebrewers are doing now.

Hull's thesis work was adding OO to stored yeast, but homebrewers have extrapolated this work to suggest that adding OO to wort directly is going to have some effect. As Denny has pointed out (and his friend's tasting experiment shows), adding OO in this fashion does not have any significant effect.

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We know olive oil can substitute for oxygen.
Well, what Hull thesis shows is that OO-treated yeast appears to ferment the New Belgium wort similarly to oxygen-treated wort (with small differences in taste and fermentation kinetics). What is NOT known is how a batch of wort that received no treatment whatsoever would ferment. It is entirely possible even with no treatment it would ferment similar to the OO or oxygen-treated worts, meaning that there is sufficient oxygen in the wort for the yeast to do their thing.

This is a critical point: OO appears to be able to substitute for oxygen because that OO-wort fermented similarly to oxygen-treated wort. However, if the oxygen treated ferments similarly to no-oxygen wort, then OO does not have an effect after all (nor does oxygen, in this system anyway).
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