Spike Brewing 12.5 Conical Fermenter Giveaway!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > General Techniques > Is it true that dough-in procedure can affect FG?

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 05-27-2010, 12:28 AM   #1
pherball
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 61
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default Is it true that dough-in procedure can affect FG?

I have always added grain first, then strike-water second to my mash tun. For various reasons I would like to start adding the water to the tun first. I have heard some speculation that doing this will lead to a higher finishing gravity. So I have some reservations about making the change.

Has anyone had this experience? And would someone please explain *how* this might result (denatured enzymes, perhaps).

Thanks

__________________
pherball is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-27-2010, 12:38 AM   #2
King of Cascade
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 663
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

I always add the water first then stir in the grain. For me it’s easier and never had a problem with final gravities or efficiencies. I could see how adding grain to water over 160 degrees would denature some of the enzymes but I usually get fast conversion and never have issues with mashing.

__________________
King of Cascade is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-27-2010, 12:39 AM   #3
Brew-boy
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Brew-boy's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Lapeer, Michigan
Posts: 2,415
Liked 13 Times on 10 Posts
Likes Given: 9

Default

I think a lot of people go water first then add the grain. The only way you will be able to tell is do a side by side test. Do it both ways and see if you notice a difference on Your system.

__________________
Next:Smoked Pilsner.
Primary:Belgian Red, American Stout w/Roeselare
On Tap:Pale Ale, English Bitter
Aging: Imperial Oatmeal Stout on Vanilla beans.

I rather owe you a dollar than cheat you out of it.."Dad"

http://lapeerareabrewers.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LapeerAreaBrewers/
Brew-boy is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-27-2010, 02:52 AM   #4
Scut_Monkey
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,682
Liked 13 Times on 13 Posts

Default

I use to add the water to the grain and found it to be a huge pain and much harder to control the temperature. When you add the water to the mash tun first you can add it a few temps warmer than needed, preheat the mash tun and when it comes down to your temp throw in the grain. Going the opposite way makes it harder to preheat the mash tun until you know exactly how much heat the mash tun itself is going to soak up.

__________________
Scut_Monkey is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-27-2010, 07:50 AM   #5
MattHollingsworth
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Samobor, Croatia
Posts: 1,612
Liked 30 Times on 28 Posts
Likes Given: 37

Default

I do water then grain and never have a problem with high FG. Latest beer I just bottled was 80% attenuated (with White Labs WLP022 Essex Ale) and I typically have beers attenuate a little more than the stated range for yeasts.

__________________
HOMEBREWING SINCE 1997
MattHollingsworth is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-27-2010, 12:56 PM   #6
SpanishCastleAle
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 4,384
Liked 29 Times on 29 Posts

Default

I think King of Cascade touched on it. If you dough-in grain-to-water to rest at say 152* F, then the water obv needs to be hotter than that, lets say 165* F. So when you add that first bit of grain to all that water it's getting quickly heated up to ~165* F which denatures some of the enzymes. After you've added all the grain and stirred the temp comes down to your rest temp.

If you dough-in water-to-grain, that first bit of water is quickly cooled by all that grain and the enzymes are not denatured. It is only after you've added all the water and stirred that temp finally comes up to your rest temp (neglecting any overshoot to account for tun heating).

So imo it's more like "if everything else is kept equal" then you may get a slightly higher FG doughing-in grain-to-water. But one could easily make a slight adjustment to account for this so it's no big deal.

__________________
Early brewers were primarily women, mostly because it was deemed a woman's job. Mesopotamian men, of some 3,800 years ago, were obviously complete assclowns and had yet to realize the pleasure of brewing beer.- Beer Advocate
SpanishCastleAle is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-27-2010, 01:40 PM   #7
MattHollingsworth
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Samobor, Croatia
Posts: 1,612
Liked 30 Times on 28 Posts
Likes Given: 37

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpanishCastleAle View Post
I think King of Cascade touched on it. If you dough-in grain-to-water to rest at say 152* F, then the water obv needs to be hotter than that, lets say 165* F. So when you add that first bit of grain to all that water it's getting quickly heated up to ~165* F which denatures some of the enzymes. After you've added all the grain and stirred the temp comes down to your rest temp.

If you dough-in water-to-grain, that first bit of water is quickly cooled by all that grain and the enzymes are not denatured. It is only after you've added all the water and stirred that temp finally comes up to your rest temp (neglecting any overshoot to account for tun heating).

So imo it's more like "if everything else is kept equal" then you may get a slightly higher FG doughing-in grain-to-water. But one could easily make a slight adjustment to account for this so it's no big deal.
Given that, I should clarify what I do. I dough in at room temp, then ramp up using my RIMS system. So my results may vary from what others are experiencing.
__________________
HOMEBREWING SINCE 1997
MattHollingsworth is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-27-2010, 01:46 PM   #8
Cpt_Kirks
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Lakeland TN
Posts: 3,738
Liked 44 Times on 39 Posts

Default

I tried adding water to grain once. It was the biggest frakking mess I have ever had brewing. It was one big dough ball and simply would not drain. I had to use an ale pail with a grain bag, and shovel it all over, then try to sparge.

That batch came out a starchy mess, that strangely fermented out to a very high ABV. But, it tasted like dirt. It went down the drain.

So, I add grain to water now.

__________________
Cpt_Kirks is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-27-2010, 01:54 PM   #9
AnOldUR
fer-men-TAY-shuhn
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
AnOldUR's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 6,094
Liked 548 Times on 399 Posts
Likes Given: 420

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpanishCastleAle View Post
If you dough-in grain-to-water to rest at say 152* F, then the water obv needs to be hotter than that, lets say 165* F. So when you add that first bit of grain to all that water it's getting quickly heated up to ~165* F which denatures some of the enzymes.
Is this speculation or proven fact? Can’t the enzymes survive when exposed to heat for a short amount of time? And even if “some” of the enzymes are denatured will their absence have any effect on the mash? By personal experience and from the number of brewers who go with grain to water this statement can probably be stamped as “myth.”
__________________
AnOldUR is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-27-2010, 01:59 PM   #10
Edcculus
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 4,567
Liked 40 Times on 37 Posts

Default

I really don't think this is true. I've never seen any study (although I've never looked) on whether adding water to grain or adding grain to water will effect fermentability of the wort. Unless it takes you 20 minutes to dough in, I really don't see it making any difference.

__________________
Edcculus is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dough-in procedure larrybrewer All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 8 03-10-2009 02:04 PM
Dough-In Infusion Only? mgo737 All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 1 03-06-2009 01:40 AM
Dough in process LarMoeCur All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 15 05-11-2007 03:06 AM
Dough in temps what is it? Gregg Meyer All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 7 01-22-2007 12:52 PM
Dough In Brewiz All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 5 05-26-2006 07:04 PM