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Old 10-03-2012, 06:42 PM   #1
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Default Tannins / Finings / Bottle carbonation & conditioning

I would love some recommendations on adding fining agents to remove tannins in beer that is bottle carbonated/conditioned. I waded through previous posts on this topic, but didn't find a clear answer.

(1) Which fining agent is best for this purpose? Obviously, I don't want to remove all the yeast since I'll need it for carbonating. My LHBS provides the following fining agents:
- Bentonite
- Gelatin
- Isinglass (liquid)
- Sparkolloid

(2) If the beer is eventually bottle carbonated/conditioned, is it better to add it to the secondary (before/after/with dry-hops), or to bottling bucket with sugar before bottling? I should mention that I have no means to chill the secondary. My thought was to add it to the bottling bucket, carb at room temp for 3 weeks and then transfer the bottles to the fridge for a few days to clarify.

Thoughts?

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Old 10-03-2012, 07:15 PM   #2
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Location: Canada. Leave secondary outside overnight?

It probably takes some time to settle at higher temperatures.

maybe add some at bottling and carb as you said, then shake it up again before chilling so it's back in solution?

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Old 10-03-2012, 07:18 PM   #3
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Didn't understand the question, have no idea as to a solution.

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Old 10-03-2012, 07:34 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherpa FE View Post
1) Tannins, are a flavor extraction that cannot be removed, possibly masked or covered.
I think you are referring to removing, any kind of sediment? If that's the case, Irish moss or Whirlfloc, or super moss in the boil to remove most of the proteins from the beer. At each stage though, you want to filter the beer by either leaving some behind in the primary ( the yeast cake debris), or by a filter of some sort, there are many choices out there.
For clarifying in the secondary, gelatin works well. When going from secondary to bottling bucket, again leave as much sediment behind, here is where a plate chiller would also be used. I know some people that filter through cheese cloth at every stage, and they have crystal clear beer in the bottle.

2) Once your beer hits the bottle, the only thing you want in there is beer, and whatever sugar you are using to carbonate. If you still end p with some sediment in the bottom, either don't pour out all the beer, or just pour it in, it's only vitamin B.

Hope I understood your question, and it helps.
As I understand it, tannins can be removed once they bind proteins...but I assume this happens most at cold temperatures. My thinking was that the yeast was still fully present in the bottles for carbing, but once chilled the tannins would bind proteins (chill haze) and the dissolved gelatin (or other fining agent) would pull the protein-tannin complex to the bottom of the bottle. My thought was that without investing in a means of chilling the secondary, the fining agent wouldn't be very effective. I want the fining agent to remove the tannins, but leave enough yeast to carb properly. Hopefully when I decant the chilled beer from the bottle to drink it, the sediment stays behind. I think I've read here that some people say this is ok, but others get floaters.
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:40 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewzombie View Post
As I understand it, tannins can be removed once they bind proteins...but I assume this happens most at cold temperatures. My thinking was that the yeast was still fully present in the bottles for carbing, but once chilled the tannins would bind proteins (chill haze) and the dissolved gelatin (or other fining agent) would pull the protein-tannin complex to the bottom of the bottle. My thought was that without investing in a means of chilling the secondary, the fining agent wouldn't be very effective. I want the fining agent to remove the tannins, but leave enough yeast to carb properly. Hopefully when I decant the chilled beer from the bottle to drink it, the sediment stays behind. I think I've read here that some people say this is ok, but others get floaters.
After I posted I went and researched the tannins, and using clarifiers to drop the taste, it seems that there are some evidence to support it.

Oops, I am going to edit my post now.
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:43 PM   #6
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Found this link, I read through it, seems like it might be able to help

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/taste-tannins-110500/

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Old 10-03-2012, 08:46 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Sherpa FE View Post
Found this link, I read through it, seems like it might be able to help

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/taste-tannins-110500/
Thanks. I had read that post, but it's not exactly what I'm looking for. Let's ignore why I want to get rid of tannins or the steps leading up to tannin production. I really want to focus on clearing them out of the beer. That post did mention that Polyclar (PVPP) is the best for tannins in specific (but I don't think my LHBS has that in stock). The other fining agents I mentioned should work; there is at least ample mention on this forum of using gelatin (for example) to reduce chill haze while allowing carbonation to proceed, but my impression was there can be mixed results and it's more of an art (too much and the yeast settles out too quick). It's also not clear to me that I can use gelatin (for example) as I suggested, i.e. dissolved at bottling, then condition 3 weeks at room temp, then chill to clarify.

I'd also be happy to add it to the secondary (and even reintroducing yeast at bottling), but I don't know if any fining agent would be very effective at room temp.

The main thing is I have no experience with fining agents except irish moss (which I do use in the boil, but the chill haze persists).
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Old 10-03-2012, 09:12 PM   #8
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Gelatin needs extended cold storage time to work. I'm seeing it first-hand with a primary and the line where the beer is clear vs hazy is slowly moving down the carboy but it is taking days of near freezing temperature.

I also am re-yeasting with a minimal amount (1 million cells per mL of beer) of rehydrated S04 for bottle conditioning.

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Old 10-04-2012, 03:24 AM   #9
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Gelatin needs extended cold storage time to work. I'm seeing it first-hand with a primary and the line where the beer is clear vs hazy is slowly moving down the carboy but it is taking days of near freezing temperature.

I also am re-yeasting with a minimal amount (1 million cells per mL of beer) of rehydrated S04 for bottle conditioning.
Thanks for your comment. At least one forum poster to a 2007 thread said you can add gelatin at bottling (or the secondary) without seriously slowing natural carbonation in the bottle.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/gela...25/index2.html

Others have mentioned that carbonation is slowed down significantly, but the beer will carbonate eventually. I guess this depends on how much gelatin is added (I think 1/2 tsp per 5 gal was what I saw in other posts). If carbonation is affected, I can't help but think that bottle "conditioning" will take even longer since there is even less yeast around, but I haven't heard anyone mention this.

Is gelatin the best choice of fining agent for my purposes? Or is something else more selective to tannins and thus more appropriate for bottle carbonation?

I also found a comment from a Brew Your Own columnist that the gelatin won't stay on the bottom of a bottle during decanting etc. Anyone have experience with this?

http://www.byo.com/stories/technique...nditioned-beer

"Bottled beer is another animal and you cannot use the cask technique to fine, prime and condition beer in the bottle. The floc would never stay at the bottom of the bottle during those necessary movements (i.e. transfer to the fridge, drinking from the bottle or decanting to a glass)."
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Old 10-04-2012, 01:02 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewzombie View Post
Thanks for your comment. At least one forum poster to a 2007 thread said you can add gelatin at bottling (or the secondary) without seriously slowing natural carbonation in the bottle.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/gela...25/index2.html

Others have mentioned that carbonation is slowed down significantly, but the beer will carbonate eventually. I guess this depends on how much gelatin is added (I think 1/2 tsp per 5 gal was what I saw in other posts). If carbonation is affected, I can't help but think that bottle "conditioning" will take even longer since there is even less yeast around, but I haven't heard anyone mention this.

Is gelatin the best choice of fining agent for my purposes? Or is something else more selective to tannins and thus more appropriate for bottle carbonation?
I want this beer by Thanksgiving so I'm adding the S04 as a good measure.

I used 1 gram of gelatin per gallon of finished beer, dissolved in 2 oz of water per gallon of finished beer. Bloomed at room temperature for 30 min, heated to 160F in a microwave, poured into a carboy that has been at 34F for a day, and slightly swirled. The beer is clear in 2 days but I'm bottling in a week.

I have no issue with perfectly clear beer at room temperature with 4-6 week primaries. My beer typically clouds up at cold crashing which I understand is a sign of chill haze. I've tried whirlfloc and see no difference except there is fluffy trub in the boil kettle. I dump everything into the fermenter and haven't seen a difference in the final chilled clarity. I haven't tried a protien rest yet but will on a repeat recipe to see if it improves clarity. Gelatin seems to be working but maybe something else will work too.

I'm not using gelatin for a tannin flavor. Planning for, measuring and adjusting mash pH should eliminate off-flavors from extracting tannins. Along with not sparging too hot.
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