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Old 01-06-2011, 11:22 PM   #41
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You have the Noritz right? Hold up & down arrow (on keypad) at the same time and you enter a list of service codes. Scroll with up arrow to 31 & it will tell you precisely the outgoing GPM's. It can tell you a bunch of other cool things too. I'll get the list and post what the codes are..

It can tell you the exact temp of the water leaving the hot water out. When I set my temp to 180 and ran it, there are moments when the heater has heated the water to 195+ - for brief moments, then it settles back to 180 on the nose.
Cool! I never bothered reading the manual...
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Old 01-06-2011, 11:34 PM   #42
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What does one of these run, ballpark? And is it as obtrusive as it looks in the pic?

Awesome potential for homebrewers.
Its roughly 9"D x 28"H x 20"W - without the plumbing of course. It takes up considerably less space than my old 50 gal water tank. The new tankless take up a few square feet, while the old tank took up cubic vertical feet.

My pal is a plumber so he cut me a great deal & I assisted with the install. These units are around $1500, without installation. In a typical situation that would probably add another 1,000-1,500.

Pricey yes, BUT, my local gas co is offering a $200 cash rebate for these units. The Govt ran a 30% of invoice tax rebate until Dec 31 2010, which is approx $800 for me. My old water tank is nearing the end of life at 6 years old & that would have cost me $700-900 for an install. So it started to get cost effective & logical when I realized the brewing potential.

Plus, these units have a 20+ year lifespan.
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Old 01-06-2011, 11:42 PM   #43
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[QUOTE=cruelkix;2529443]That is a bummer that you can only go up in increments of 10. Looks like the guy did a very nice install. Good idea with the divert valve. I guess this is out of the question for replacing a HLT. Too bad....QUOTE]

But really, by the time i'm pouring 180 degree water into my cold mash tun (cooler) and it preheats for a few minutes, I'm guessing I'll be right around my 12-14 degree above mash-in target temp. Or if not, a couple splashes of cold water should do the trick.

This also means instant mash-out & sparge water. Yes - the HLT, for me, is dead.

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Old 01-06-2011, 11:54 PM   #44
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a little o/t but im a plumber by trade, did he install any valves to flush out the heat exchanger of the heater? usually you have to flush out these things with vinegar every so often to kill the scale on the inside of the HE when they get scaled up they will throw an error code...
Yeah, he installed an isolator valve kit for this purpose. Although, our water is so soft here, there isn't hardly any scale issue.
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Old 01-07-2011, 12:07 AM   #45
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Just got it put in last week. No problem hitting 180 degees with a flow rate of 2.4 GPM. My ground water temp is 47 degrees. I only brew 5-6 gal batches, so I can collect my mash & sparge water in a few minutes.

One bummer: if you turn the heater up past 140, you can only set the temp in 10 degree increments, so 140, 150, 160, etc up to 180. I thought I'd be able to precisely set the temp desired, so that was a bit of a let-down.

here's a few pics..

For a brew op of that size (55 gal), I think you would need several tankless heaters in series. But it would be totally doable. Or, just use one and have a well-insulated liquor tank. My plumber who installed mine, said he uses his to fill his hot tub.

I'll brew my 1st batch on it this weekend. I'm interested to find out how the unit affects my brew day.
I have had a Navien direct vent TWH for a couple of years. My setup does not resemble yours (I run double-walled copper in and as I direct vent out from the basement to the outside above).

Interesting idea about using this to pre-heat your water prior to the boil. How many BTU's are you using to get the water from 45' to 180 to 220' via the TWH versus taking 120' water and getting it up to 220' (+100') on the stove? Are you using natural gas or propane (I use propane). Montanaandy
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Old 01-07-2011, 12:11 AM   #46
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Plus, these units have a 20+ year lifespan.[/QUOTE]

Not if you are running them that high they won't (assuming you have a recirc pump involved in your system). Montanaandy

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Old 01-07-2011, 12:28 AM   #47
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I have had a Navien direct vent TWH for a couple of years. My setup does not resemble yours (I run double-walled copper in and as I direct vent out from the basement to the outside above).

Interesting idea about using this to pre-heat your water prior to the boil. How many BTU's are you using to get the water from 45' to 180 to 220' via the TWH versus taking 120' water and getting it up to 220' (+100') on the stove? Are you using natural gas or propane (I use propane). Montanaandy
Its a 199,000 BTU Nat Gas unit, so I would assume that when I run it at 180 degrees, its using close to all of that. All built-in efficiency of the unit is out the window when running it wide open I'm sure. Its probably eating gas like a monster.

After run off, I boil with electric. No BTU's there.
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Old 01-07-2011, 12:45 AM   #48
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IThese units are around $1500, without installation. In a typical situation that would probably add another 1,000-1,500.

Pricey yes, BUT, my local gas co is offering a $200 cash rebate for these units. The Govt ran a 30% of invoice tax rebate until Dec 31 2010, which is approx $800 for me.
Not bad considering I just paid $500 for a 50 gallon gas heater, my old one lasted a whopping 5 years. Plus nat gas here is dropping like a rock, hmmm...
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Old 01-07-2011, 03:10 AM   #49
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Plus, these units have a 20+ year lifespan.
Not if you are running them that high they won't (assuming you have a recirc pump involved in your system). Montanaandy
My parents have 2 Bosch tankless heaters that are 22 years old and have been running at 140 degree output for that entire time in a house of 5 people for more than half that time. A few minor part replacements is it and this is "older" technology.

Nobody here is suggesting running at 180 all the time, BTW, and yes, they last longer than that without issue, generally, as long as your water doesn't have high mineral content. If it does, it just takes a more regular maintenance cycle to ensure there isn't too much build-up.
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Old 01-07-2011, 03:24 AM   #50
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I have had a Navien direct vent TWH for a couple of years. My setup does not resemble yours (I run double-walled copper in and as I direct vent out from the basement to the outside above).

Interesting idea about using this to pre-heat your water prior to the boil. How many BTU's are you using to get the water from 45' to 180 to 220' via the TWH versus taking 120' water and getting it up to 220' (+100') on the stove? Are you using natural gas or propane (I use propane). Montanaandy
first of all, i have to use propane to heat the water if I don't use the tankless, so the "per BTU" cost of propane tanks is many times that of NG for me. Yeah, I could tap into my NG and will eventually, but for now the cost difference is significant.

Secondly, the Noritz is generally rated ~83% efficient. Meanwhile, a traditional electric stove element is ~70% and open flame NG is less than 60% IIRC and I am sure even less than that the way we use it with big flames, outside, and larger vertical columns of water (heat loss through walls and open surface of water with evaporation)...

I don't think I would be overstating that it would be a dramatic reduction in actual gas usage to get the water to that temp even running "full out". I haven't done the math but I doubt the difference in efficiency between heating 7 gpm @75 degree temp rise (all of these higher end units rated comfortably for a similar gpm flow) and 135 degree temp rise at 2.5 gpm, I don't think you're going from 83% efficiency to something silly like 60% (which would be the required drop to even bring this usage scenario's efficiency into question)
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