Surprising Aeration Results - Page 3

Ecnerwal · 09-10-2008, 01:40 PM

My primary (6.5 or 7 gallon) has a screw-on cap. After getting the wort into it, rather than pick it up and shake it (...oops! That's a glass carboy - the floor is hard - visions of Bad Things) I sit down on the floor and rock it into my lap - no place to fall, easy to slosh around.

I suppose it might look undignified, but I'm really not all that concerned with looking dignified in my own kitchen on brew-day.

**PseudoChef** · 09-10-2008, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearkluttz

+1 for the using a strainer into the bucket and then adding unboiled bottled water. i would think that the wort passing through the strainer and falling into the bucket plus the oxygen in the bottled water would be better than shaking.

Yes, but if you brew AG, you can't add water.

**bearkluttz** · 09-10-2008, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PseudoChef

Yes, but if you brew AG, you can't add water.

good point. as an extract brewer i didn't think of that.

jay4e · 09-10-2008, 03:10 PM

Any negatives to pouring half into a bucket covering and shaking for a few then pouring into carboy, repeat and shake carboy for a few?

Would seem easier and more efficient than just shaking a carboy for 10 min

stever · 09-10-2008, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay4e

Any negatives to pouring half into a bucket covering and shaking for a few then pouring into carboy, repeat and shake carboy for a few?

Would seem easier and more efficient than just shaking a carboy for 10 min

10 minutes is excessive, I shake for maybe 2 minutes, take a break, shake it again for another minute.. do some more clean up, then give it one last good shake for a minute and that's it.

and seriously, it's easy if you just rock it back and forth. you will be amazed at how much you can get that wort sloshing around with very little effort.

**Bobby_M** · 09-10-2008, 03:47 PM

The biggest downside to any shake/agitation method is that you're intentionally introducing ambient air into your chilled wort. Whether or not you ever have any contamination issues in the process is based on how much wild stuff you have floating around and how lucky you are. I don't want to take the chance so I let the pure O2 flow in for 60 seconds. The bonus is that I continue to avoid physical activity and look more and more like Homer each passing day. Mmmmm Beer.

stever · 09-10-2008, 04:05 PM

Interesting, although I would think the likeliness of that happening would be very slim. Even though it is a risk I think you also take a risk by introducing more equipment into your brew by using a stone. Which is the lesser of two evils? I really don't know but so far my shaken beers have come out fine and attenuate almost too well. I guess I stick with what works for the time being.

Also I just found your video from 2007 where you tested the various methods of aeration, it was good stuff.

**Bobby_M** · 09-10-2008, 04:24 PM

When we talk about sanitation, every bit of it (including other parts of our processes) are a calculated risk. I think there are a bunch of nuance steps that represent a minimal risk, but if you put enough of them together and repeat it over the course of a few batches, it'll bite you.

With the stone and tubing, they go into the iodaphor or starsan for 30 minutes prior to using. I think it's relatively safe. The stone can also be boiled or put in the toaster oven on occasion to blast anything that's in the pores.

Back to the original topic, I would be extremely thrilled with a controlled experiment where one:

1. Uses wort of at least two different concentrations (1.040 and 1.080 for example).
2. Boils for long enough the the DO meter reads ZERO.
3. Tests for all of the predominant methods which at minimum is shaking (manual ambient air entranement), air pump, and direct O2. The D.O. would be measured over a couple different time increments and then left to go for an unreasonable amount of time just to verify actual maximums.

Is this too much to hope for? Not if you're serious about getting relatively definitive data.

From Wyeast's FAQ:

28. What are optimal levels of O2 in wort?

10-15ppm

29. What is the max level of O2 you can get in a carboy using air?

8 ppm.

Further based on their DO meter tests:

Method DO ppm Time
Siphon Spray 4 ppm 0 sec.
Splashing & Shaking 8 ppm 40 sec.
Aquarium Pump w/ stone 8 ppm 5 min
Pure Oxygen w/ stone 0-26ppm 60 sec (12ppm)

Granted, they don't publish anywhere near enough setup info to verify the method as being reasonable.

strohs · 09-10-2008, 09:25 PM

I strain the wort going into the carboy as well as shaking the carboy as it fills - i.e. I shake at 1 gallon, two gallons, 3 gallons, etc.

If I am using my plastic bucket, I just use my mash paddle and stir like crazy.
With the "holes" in it, it aerates the wort like crazy.

The yeasties seem to like both ways!

**Bobby_M** · 09-10-2008, 09:36 PM

This really isn't an issue of what is "enough aeration". There are so many factors that go into whether or not you'll get a desirable end result. What you consider acceptable isn't the same as what is ideal. The labratory that supplies a huge amount of the yeast we use recommend 10ppm. Now it's a matter of how to achieve it. I'd be willing to run the experiment again if someone can get me a DO meter to borrow. Anyone?

09-10-2008, 03:47 PM	#26 (permalink)
Bobby_M Stick it in the fridge Recipes Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Piscataway, NJ Posts: 9,666 Bobby_M's Gallery	The biggest downside to any shake/agitation method is that you're intentionally introducing ambient air into your chilled wort. Whether or not you ever have any contamination issues in the process is based on how much wild stuff you have floating around and how lucky you are. I don't want to take the chance so I let the pure O2 flow in for 60 seconds. The bonus is that I continue to avoid physical activity and look more and more like Homer each passing day. Mmmmm Beer. __________________ Bobby Na zdrowie! Youtube Videos \| My Website \| Keg Polishing \| Brewstand Build \| All Grain Primer\| Buy a sightglass

09-10-2008, 04:24 PM	#28 (permalink)
Bobby_M Stick it in the fridge Recipes Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Piscataway, NJ Posts: 9,666 Bobby_M's Gallery	When we talk about sanitation, every bit of it (including other parts of our processes) are a calculated risk. I think there are a bunch of nuance steps that represent a minimal risk, but if you put enough of them together and repeat it over the course of a few batches, it'll bite you. With the stone and tubing, they go into the iodaphor or starsan for 30 minutes prior to using. I think it's relatively safe. The stone can also be boiled or put in the toaster oven on occasion to blast anything that's in the pores. Back to the original topic, I would be extremely thrilled with a controlled experiment where one: 1. Uses wort of at least two different concentrations (1.040 and 1.080 for example). 2. Boils for long enough the the DO meter reads ZERO. 3. Tests for all of the predominant methods which at minimum is shaking (manual ambient air entranement), air pump, and direct O2. The D.O. would be measured over a couple different time increments and then left to go for an unreasonable amount of time just to verify actual maximums. Is this too much to hope for? Not if you're serious about getting relatively definitive data. From Wyeast's FAQ: 28. What are optimal levels of O2 in wort? 10-15ppm 29. What is the max level of O2 you can get in a carboy using air? 8 ppm. Further based on their DO meter tests: Method DO ppm Time Siphon Spray 4 ppm 0 sec. Splashing & Shaking 8 ppm 40 sec. Aquarium Pump w/ stone 8 ppm 5 min Pure Oxygen w/ stone 0-26ppm 60 sec (12ppm) Granted, they don't publish anywhere near enough setup info to verify the method as being reasonable. __________________ Bobby Na zdrowie! Youtube Videos \| My Website \| Keg Polishing \| Brewstand Build \| All Grain Primer\| Buy a sightglass Last edited by Bobby_M : 09-10-2008 at 04:29 PM.

09-10-2008, 09:36 PM	#30 (permalink)
Bobby_M Stick it in the fridge Recipes Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Piscataway, NJ Posts: 9,666 Bobby_M's Gallery	This really isn't an issue of what is "enough aeration". There are so many factors that go into whether or not you'll get a desirable end result. What you consider acceptable isn't the same as what is ideal. The labratory that supplies a huge amount of the yeast we use recommend 10ppm. Now it's a matter of how to achieve it. I'd be willing to run the experiment again if someone can get me a DO meter to borrow. Anyone? __________________ Bobby Na zdrowie! Youtube Videos \| My Website \| Keg Polishing \| Brewstand Build \| All Grain Primer\| Buy a sightglass Last edited by Bobby_M : 09-10-2008 at 09:45 PM.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

09-10-2008, 01:40 PM	#21 (permalink)
Ecnerwal Senior Member Recipes Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Williamstown, MA Posts: 426	My primary (6.5 or 7 gallon) has a screw-on cap. After getting the wort into it, rather than pick it up and shake it (...oops! That's a glass carboy - the floor is hard - visions of Bad Things) I sit down on the floor and rock it into my lap - no place to fall, easy to slosh around. I suppose it might look undignified, but I'm really not all that concerned with looking dignified in my own kitchen on brew-day.

09-10-2008, 03:10 PM	#24 (permalink)
jay4e Member Recipes Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 82	Any negatives to pouring half into a bucket covering and shaking for a few then pouring into carboy, repeat and shake carboy for a few? Would seem easier and more efficient than just shaking a carboy for 10 min

09-10-2008, 09:25 PM	#29 (permalink)
strohs Senior Member Recipes Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 101	I strain the wort going into the carboy as well as shaking the carboy as it fills - i.e. I shake at 1 gallon, two gallons, 3 gallons, etc. If I am using my plastic bucket, I just use my mash paddle and stir like crazy. With the "holes" in it, it aerates the wort like crazy. The yeasties seem to like both ways!