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lamarguy · 06-29-2009, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brau_Haus

But if the amounts are so innocuous, wouldn't the minimal amounts of chlorine also be subsequently forced to bond with the ions in the beer, thus stopping the oxidation process?

Depends on the chlorine compound. I regularly use chlorine dioxide as a sanitizer for yeast cultures. Chlorine dioxide readily sublimates, 1 - 2 hours, and leaves zero chlorite dissolved in the water. So, this type of chlorine is useful to the homebrewer, especially since it doesn't affect yeast viability.

Sodium hypochlorite (household bleach) doesn't readily sublimate (think of swimming pools) and must be rinsed since humans can detect dissolved hypochorlite in very small concentrations. Besides that, it's a very powerful oxidizer and will pit pretty much any common metal over time and is dangerous if mixed with acidic cleaners/sanitizers. This type of chlorine should be avoided if possible.

Make sense?

RBlagojevich · 06-29-2009, 05:24 AM

Folks that don't believe bleach + vinegar is equally good -- Hey, don't take my word for it -- listen to this podcast (lord knows why the owner of star-san would tell this secret):

Basic Brewingâ„¢ : Home Brewing Beer Podcast and DVD - Basic Brewing Radioâ„¢ 2007

March 29, 2007 - Sanitizing with Bleach and Star San
Charlie Talley from Five Star Chemicals tells us best practices in using household bleach and Star San in sanitizing equipment.

lamarguy · 06-29-2009, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RBlagojevich

Folks that don't believe bleach + vinegar is equally good -- Hey, don't take my word for it -- listen to this podcast (lord knows why the owner of star-san would tell this secret):

You're providing REALLY bad information to people. Mixing bleach and vinegar causes an immediate [non-violent] reaction that releases chlorine gas into the air. Chlorine gas can be very dangerous to your health if inhaled.

Why People Mix Bleach and Vinegar [Anne Marie Helmenstine, Ph.D.]

Quote:

If mixing bleach and vinegar releases toxic chlorine gas, then why do people do it? There are two answers to this question. The first answer is that vinegar lowers the pH of bleach, making it a better disinfectant. I'll explain how that works in a bit. The second answer to 'why people mix bleach and vinegar' is that people don't know any better or underestimate the risk. They hear mixing the chemicals makes them better cleaners and disinfectants, but don't realize it isn't going to make enough of a difference to justify the considerable health hazard.

I was kidding around with you earlier, but you need to fully disclose the risks of mixing chemicals if you're going to recommend a particular solution. That, or include a disclaimer in all of your chemical related posts.

RBlagojevich · 06-29-2009, 06:24 AM

Oh come on. Like I said before, you can't mix them directly because it makes a poison gas. But stir an ounce of bleach into 5 gallons of water and then stir in an ounce of vinegar, and you're cool.

Anyway, Mr. Talley from Star San goes into all this in detail in the above-mentioned podcast.

**Yuri_Rage** · 06-29-2009, 06:26 AM

RB(lots of consonants) is right. Bleach solution combined appropriately with a mild acid is highly effective.

Star San FTW!!!

eschatz · 06-29-2009, 06:49 AM

Iodophor has been a savior to me. In all honesty, I've never used Star-san but I have used some other no rinse cleaners that cant even come close to Iodophor. I love the stuff. It's cheap and easy. That's all I need.

Iodophor works best cold. This may have not been said previously. My house puts out 154F tap water at it's hottest. That means I don't have too far to go to get my water boiling. However, I only have so much hot water before it starts moving to luke warm. When I was using other cleansers that needed hot water to work it took away from my brewing water. That in addition to the cheap cost and ease of use makes Iodophor work for me.

Brau_Haus · 06-29-2009, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaiser423

Please; it's silly to try and save a quarter and end up not even sanitizing your bottles...<snip>THAT seems silly to me.

kaiser, can't I just run my bottles through the dishwasher (without jet dry or other agent) to get them sanitized?..

lamarguy: thanks. Lots of good info.

**Homercidal** · 06-29-2009, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschatz

Iodophor has been a savior to me. In all honesty, I've never used Star-san but I have used some other no rinse cleaners that cant even come close to Iodophor. I love the stuff. It's cheap and easy. That's all I need.

Iodophor works best cold. This may have not been said previously. My house puts out 154F tap water at it's hottest. That means I don't have too far to go to get my water boiling. However, I only have so much hot water before it starts moving to luke warm. When I was using other cleansers that needed hot water to work it took away from my brewing water. That in addition to the cheap cost and ease of use makes Iodophor work for me.

I would not compare Star-San to the other no rinse sanitizers. It's effective. It's easy. Tasteless. Odorless. Reuseable. Non staining. Can be used on warm water (not hot) or cold from a spray bottle. 30-second contact time.

You can argue cost, but the small amount of difference is not considerable IMO. I buy a 2.5 gallon jug of distilled water and add a small amount of Star-san. When I'm done using it, it goes back into the jug for next time. I've done 3 brews with the same jug so far and not even half gone, and not being careful with it. If you have soft water, you dont' even nee to worry about using distilled water.

**Homercidal** · 06-29-2009, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brau_Haus

kaiser, can't I just run my bottles through the dishwasher (without jet dry or other agent) to get them sanitized?..

lamarguy: thanks. Lots of good info.

If you can run the washer without rinse aid, then you CAN sanitized bottles using the sanitize cycle on the wash, if it has one. I did this once or twice. Now I do it easier.

I dunk my bottles in star-san and place upside down on the top rack, with the tops of the bottles stuck in the openings. This way you avoid touching the top with the rack, and secures the bottle very well. By the time I've loaded up the 48-50 bottles, the first ones are dripped and possibly drying.

No worries, because they are upside down and preventing bugs from getting in there. Just start pulling them out and filling them.

If the star-san is still wet, no worries, just fill right on top!

I find this is faster than running a rinse cycle.

You can also sterilize the bottles in the oven if you like.

blackwaterbrewer · 07-03-2009, 10:00 AM

i just tasted a beer that was destroyed by using a too-strong soultion of iodophor. it was truely disgusting. can star-san produce off flavors if used incorrectly?