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**helibrewer** · 04-26-2012, 04:14 PM

Makes sense, there's more to bittering than just extracting AA, put a hop pinch between your cheek and gum and you will see that it is plenty bitter with no boiling what-so-ever.

I have heard this same information out of the Brewing Science guys at UC Davis....the brewing software will continue to compound the AA numbers in the recipe but it doesn't seem to correct for what is observed through lab analysis.

The commercial guys can crank up the IBU's with hop extract, and since they have labs handy they can do it in a controlled, precise manner.

g-star · 04-26-2012, 04:38 PM

Get a water report and check your sulfate levels. High levels of sulfate will help to increase perceived bitterness at moderate to high IBU levels, whatever the actual measured value is. You can add gypsum to the boil to achieve this.

Casey · 04-28-2012, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ylpaul2000

I just listened to a basic brewing podcast in which a two part "hop ceiling" episode was discussed and an extremely hoppy beer was sampled and there was a discussion about how the beer got so hoppy. What was established was that no matter how much hops are used in a 60 minute boil the IBU ceiling will end up around 50. They explained that designing a recipe that included more than 50 IBU's at the 60 minute boil is a waste. The conclusion was that adding hops later in the boil (5-10 minutes before flame out) was much more efficient as far as increasing the IBU's goes.

You just made me discover Basicbrewing.com. Thanks man! What a great website. I also found the "Hop Ceiling" podcast and it was pretty interesting. It also helped me confirm that I know very little about calculating IBU's. So the consensus is that most people are miss-labeling IBU's on their bottles. I suppose I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and deal with the fact that I still dont understand IBU's.....

**ylpaul2000** · 04-30-2012, 02:24 AM

I wouldn't say mis-labeling. I would say it is entirely possible that a brewery measures IBU coming out of a holding/aging tank and at that point the IBU's are quite possibly correct as per the labeling. However the Alpha Acids will stick to everything and not end up in the beer. The IBU's could be effected by everything from the distance to the bottling line to ( in a home brew
sense) the linear amount of copper one uses in their IC. Plus the AA's do degrade quickly.

**l3asturd** · 04-30-2012, 03:13 AM

You might want to check out adding hops to first wort (if you haven't already). If you don't think you're getting enough bitterness that should help. I recently replaced half of my aroma hops with first wort hops and the bitterness went off the scale.

Or maybe I'm talking out me arse. I have been indulging in HB.

3RiverBrewer · 04-30-2012, 06:48 PM

First time I heard about this I am very intrigued by it. When I first started brewing I didn't made an IPA but didn't have enough water during the boil to extract all of the bitterness and I have since been of the thinking that most IBU problems are a result of water level. I am going to have to read up on this a little more.

**ylpaul2000** · 04-30-2012, 10:09 PM

I highly suggest going to the basic brewer website and listening to the IBU ceiling episodes and then the hop bursting episode. The info given there really changed my thoughts on hop usage.

**neosapien** · 05-01-2012, 12:05 AM

wow, what an interesting podcast! thanks for the heads up on this :cheers:

Bert1097 · 05-01-2012, 01:40 PM

So the 50 IBU celing is from hop usage only? Any idea if there is a 'ceiling' w/ using hop extract, ie: hopshot from northern brewer?

**ylpaul2000** · 05-01-2012, 05:23 PM

That is a totally different beast. Many breweries such as Russian river, Avery, Lagunitas, etc. Use hop extract to bitter their beers. I've used the hop shot products with great success. The nice aspect is that there is no hop mass to deal with at all! I can really boost the IBU's and not lose a gallon of wort to vegetation.