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Old 01-18-2008, 07:21 PM   #11
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I have a pretty good idea of what an all wild yeast beer would taste like. The traditional, strong "fermented, yeasty" flavor and aroma would be present. How would it work together with a cultivated yeast strain, I wonder...

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Old 01-18-2008, 08:15 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EinGutesBier
I have a pretty good idea of what an all wild yeast beer would taste like. The traditional, strong "fermented, yeasty" flavor and aroma would be present. How would it work together with a cultivated yeast strain, I wonder...
How would you have "a pretty good idea" what it would taste like?
And what would be a commerical beer or beer style that has the " traditional, strong "fermented, yeasty" flavor and aroma" you expect a wild fermented beer would have?

Also, any beer I've ever heard of made this way(Lambic's, other homebrewers, my own) is sour. You might say sourness is its stongest characteristic.
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Old 01-18-2008, 08:44 PM   #13
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I've been to two brew pubs that use open fermentors. In both cases the fermentors were in their own "clean" room. If I had a spare room where I could hose down all of the surfaces, I see no problem with open fermentations. This was the standard procedure for most of beer brewing history. My concern with wild fermentaions would be contamination with acetobacter, giving you malt vinegar. I think though as long as it gets off to a quick start you're fine. It don't know that it would be a beer I'd want to age though as given time, any contaminants could take off then.

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Old 03-14-2009, 06:41 PM   #14
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Chances are good that there aren't many other microbes living in that area, so contamination isn't much of an issue.
I have to argue with this point. Chances are there are LOTS of microbes living in that area - you can't go anywhere without there being microbes. Whatever the reason they don't get infections (or maybe they do?) it is not because there are no microbes there.
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Old 03-14-2009, 08:27 PM   #15
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I've experimented with open (bucket lid not snapped down) fermentation. At least 20 if not more batches. I think it produces a great beer. However I've had more instances of infection by doing so. I've since reverted to closed fermenters and the beer is just as good.

I suspect air flow still gets in under the loose lids carrying dust or some fomite introducing the bad bacteria.

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Old 04-08-2010, 12:50 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by landhoney View Post
Supposedly open fermentation allows for a stronger yeast character in the beer. In the same way breweries use pressurized fermentation vessels to inhibit yeast character, the opposite
In this post you referred to brewing under pressure making for a cleaner tasting yeast profile. I just brewed a west coast red based on this recipe http://beerdujour.com/Recipes/Jamil/...anAmberAle.htm with non-recommended safale so4 yeast . I was interested in getting a cleaner yeast taste closer to the recommended wyeast 1056 american ale or fermentis so5 .

Are you aware of the kind of pressure levels which create cleaner profiles?

Anything more than blowoff tubes going to the bottom of a carboy ( about 1 psi ) would be awkward to facillitate, plus now a few days have elapsed and I'm already at 2/3 attentuation so this is really is academic question. Even fermenting with pressure relief caps as in http://www.zimbio.com/Homebrewing/ar...sy+Bottle+Brew would be awkward, although fermenting in corney kegs equipped with pressure relief valves protected from clogging might work.

Next time I'll just get the right yeast first, but I'm still curious as to what kind of pressure is required and what is happening to the yeast to make the taste more neutral.

Ken
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Old 01-15-2011, 06:21 AM   #17
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I began using "open" fermentation a few batches ago. Anything I brew with top-fermenting yeast I now primary in an 8 gallon stainless steel megapot. So far, all of these batches have been my best to-date, and my friends who have tasted exclaimed to be of commercial quality. I myself, am impressed as well, really spot on.

I leave the pot's lid on most of the time, loosely if you will, but I open it at least once or twice a day to both see what's going on and ensure any built up off-gases are able to escape periodically. I'm currently re-culturing WLP001 as a "house" yeast for these beers, and starting a belgian culture now (I'm perfectly happy to have just these two around). Another benefit is the ability to skim off hop/grain particulate early and harvest viable yeast from the krausen. This collection method is far superior to using the dregs.

As someone who is actually using this method, I would have to recommend that this is a good way to go. So far, 0 contamination, in fact, I've gotten more contaminations from the fermenting bucket with lid and airlock.

In full activity, I do believe that yeast can protect itself from most of the problems brewers worry about. I always rack to secondary carboy just before the krausen drops - by this time, the beer has already reached (or is very close) to the terminal gravity and any later, will start to becom susceptible to contamination.

The thing that I feel is the greatest value is that I am much more in-tune with the fermentation process. I can tell when the yeast has reached peak and when its finished. That means my beers get exactly the amount of time needed to complete primary fermentation, no more no less. Another important aspect is that the vessel is wide (not tall like a bucket) which means more surface area for yeast to colonize, thus more contact with wort. Overall, the yeast seems to be free and able to work efficiently, much more so than in a bucket or especially carboy. So far, a 7% beer was finished in 7 days, 5% in 5 days. I wonder if a brew needs a day for each 1 percent??

Anyway, I highly recommend it!

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Old 03-10-2011, 05:38 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronkaz View Post
I began using "open" fermentation a few batches ago. Anything I brew with top-fermenting yeast I now primary in an 8 gallon stainless steel megapot. So far, all of these batches have been my best to-date, and my friends who have tasted exclaimed to be of commercial quality. I myself, am impressed as well, really spot on.

I leave the pot's lid on most of the time, loosely if you will, but I open it at least once or twice a day to both see what's going on and ensure any built up off-gases are able to escape periodically. I'm currently re-culturing WLP001 as a "house" yeast for these beers, and starting a belgian culture now (I'm perfectly happy to have just these two around). Another benefit is the ability to skim off hop/grain particulate early and harvest viable yeast from the krausen. This collection method is far superior to using the dregs.

As someone who is actually using this method, I would have to recommend that this is a good way to go. So far, 0 contamination, in fact, I've gotten more contaminations from the fermenting bucket with lid and airlock.

In full activity, I do believe that yeast can protect itself from most of the problems brewers worry about. I always rack to secondary carboy just before the krausen drops - by this time, the beer has already reached (or is very close) to the terminal gravity and any later, will start to becom susceptible to contamination.

The thing that I feel is the greatest value is that I am much more in-tune with the fermentation process. I can tell when the yeast has reached peak and when its finished. That means my beers get exactly the amount of time needed to complete primary fermentation, no more no less. Another important aspect is that the vessel is wide (not tall like a bucket) which means more surface area for yeast to colonize, thus more contact with wort. Overall, the yeast seems to be free and able to work efficiently, much more so than in a bucket or especially carboy. So far, a 7% beer was finished in 7 days, 5% in 5 days. I wonder if a brew needs a day for each 1 percent??

Anyway, I highly recommend it!
how have your subsequent open fermentation batches turned out? my next batch, a hefeweizen, is going to be an open fermentation. it's an experiment to see if the esters and phenols are increased with the greater O2 contact.
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Old 03-13-2011, 05:54 AM   #19
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I myself have brewed lets say well over 400 batches and only use open Fermentation, and never ever have had a bad batch, all lagers i might add. It is the way Beer was brewed traditionally, and i try to keep to the old tradition ways, like only using Hops, Water ,Malt and Yeast. Way change a winning team right.

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Old 03-13-2011, 02:37 PM   #20
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his was the standard procedure for most of beer brewing history. My concern with wild fermentaions would be contamination with acetobacter, giving you malt vinegar. I think though as long as it gets off to a quick start you're fine. It don't know that it would be a beer I'd want to age though as given time, any contaminants could take off then.
You are definitely right on this point, just not for the reasons you think. Acetobacter is in just about every beer produced, but beer prevents it from growing.

In the excellent research paper: Beer-Spoilage-Bacteria-and-Hop-Resistance They state "Today these aerobic bacteria do not present a serious problem in beer spoilage anymore, since improved brewing technology has led to a drastic reduction of the oxygen content in beer".

Open fermentation, if not carefully controlled (monitoring of SG to know when to close fermentation tanks), can allow for much higher levels of oxygen in the finished beer. This increase in oxygen allows for the reproduction of bacteria from the Acetobacter group. These are bacteria present everywhere that will turn your beer into vinegar if you give them enough time (1 week per 1%ABV) and dissolved oxygen.

If you have your sanitation practices down, then I would suggest trying open fermentation to allow the yeast to develop different characteristics. I will be trying this with my next pale ale, the only thing to remember is to be extra careful, and to properly seal the fermenter (ie: airlock) before the beer is done fermenting to allow at least some of the oxygen to be purged from the beer.
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