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Old 02-19-2011, 04:43 AM   #11
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Hmmm, so how long should I leave an opening for the air to heat after knocking out my boil to the keg?

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Old 02-19-2011, 12:55 PM   #12
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Good question. I'm not sure. On the one hand, it isn't much volume of air to heat up. On the other hand, air isn't the most effecient method of transferring heat.

I think it would work to just bleed the pressure off for the first few minutes, until it stops building pressure.

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Old 02-19-2011, 03:09 PM   #13
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Alright, thank you dorklord for what you have contributed, and you jeffmeh for your interest in this. What I have so far is what I was hoping for and thought would happen.

1.) The hot wort filled keg will surely hold up to the minimum vacuum that will be created during the filling and cooling process.

2.) This vacuum is not going to be enough to first, not suck the wort out of the 2 liter (or smaller sized) starter pop bottle, or secondly enough to implode the bottle to the point of sucking it inside the tap and keg. <--- I knew this in my head and heart, but I have been unpleasantly surprised before by seemingly non-ominous, but catastrophic, experiments that made me say .
I am glad the above has been resolved, but that just leaves a bit more to complete the thoughts I have. To recap and keep the answers coming in streamlined for ease of understanding to me, here's what I still need from you smart people. Feel free to just quote the question(s) and then post your answer(s). Might make it that much easier to read.

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First question: How would you suggest I go about aerating it, based on the fact that I will not be moving the wort after it is in the keg and at pitching temperature?
I have been through the numerous research, read Yeast, and done many a batch of beer, and the one thing I can say is that I am after the cleanest profile possible with using the Closed-System Pressurized Fermentation Technique. That being said, I am after that with No-Chill Method as well. Lower esters, lower fusels, etc. are where it is at for my taste buds. Understanding this, I would use a different approach for beers where these flavor characteristics are wanted, but aeration crosses the gap where technique has the ability to divide it into different things. I want the yeast to have what it needs, and it needs oxygen. I could use olive oil in my starter, higher yeast pitching rate, or any other method for not worrying about aerating my wort... but I have only done properly aerated batches and am not comfortable trying these techniques without some good "been there, done that" personal accounts on you guys parts.

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Second question: Is there a specific technique you guys might recommend in my case? Or, am I going to be OK pressurizing the keg (psi unknown so if you have a recommendation...) with pure O2 and shaking/rolling/agitating?
It's a 15 gallon keg, so not that easy a job though still doable. I hope to get this aeration issue resolved as convincingly as the pitching was answered.
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Last question: If I had fermenting beer in a keg, pressurized to say 30 psi@ 70*F, could I do the following? Hook up a White Labs yeast container to the normally beer-out post on my tap connector on the fermenting keg (my spunding valve setup). The setup would be the same as when pitching, with a valve between the container and the connector. Once tapped, and the valve opened, would the vial/container fill with enough beer to test? I can't understand how the pressure of air in the vial would react. Help with this please?
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Old 02-19-2011, 04:46 PM   #14
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Ok, I put to bed the yeast vial idea. The testing spigot is far superior. So, still looking for aeration ideas.

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Old 02-20-2011, 12:33 PM   #15
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It's beyond my readily available knowledge, but one could calculate the atmoshpheric pressure level required to bring the keg with O2 that would properly saturate the wort, given the temperature and head space, correct? I imagine you could come up with an oxygenating chart similar to a carbing chart for your desired O2 saturation. Taking the analogy further, there must be some "burst carbing" equivalent that would speed up the process. Of course, you probably already know this and are looking for someone with the knowledge and skills to do the math.

As far as agitating goes, the simplest and least desirable option would be to roll the keg. Another idea would be a scaled up shake table. They make some silly massage/exercise devices, but I do not know anything about them. Perhaps you rig up some DIY equivalent. Yet another idea would be to suspend the keg from the ceiling with some heavy duty bands so that it is virtually weightless, and put some slight downward force on it and let it "bounce." Heavy duty bands: http://store.sorinex.com/CrossFit_Bands_s/167.htm


Regarding your final question, if the valve on the keg is attached to the dip tube and submerged in liquid, I would think the vial would fill until it reached the pressure of the keg, while compressing the air in the vial. Does sampling really need to be closed, or could you just run a line into an open container?

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Old 02-20-2011, 02:26 PM   #16
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Well, I know you use regular Sanke's for your fermenters, but on mine I have a bottom dump. I also use an in line oxygenation stone that's in a tri-clamp tee which I take off of the boil kettle and take to the fermenter to do in line carbing during transfer (have yet to actually do it, cause I'm doing pressure ferments most of the time).

Put it on the bottom dump and inject away. I know this is how some folks do it with big fermenters which don't have stones already in them (jerry-rig unitank), they just do it thru the bottom dump. Think I read that on the probrewer forums.

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Old 02-20-2011, 04:15 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by jeffmeh View Post
It's beyond my readily available knowledge, but one could calculate the atmoshpheric pressure level required to bring the keg with O2 that would properly saturate the wort, given the temperature and head space, correct? I imagine you could come up with an oxygenating chart similar to a carbing chart for your desired O2 saturation. Taking the analogy further, there must be some "burst carbing" equivalent that would speed up the process. Of course, you probably already know this and are looking for someone with the knowledge and skills to do the math.

Regarding your final question, does sampling really need to be closed, or could you just run a line into an open container?
Yes, I need the math to see if this is worth while or if another way is needed to succeed.

Final question was answered. I already have a testing spigot and that way works just fine.

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Originally Posted by SankePankey View Post
Well, I know you use regular Sanke's for your fermenters, but on mine I have a bottom dump. I also use an in line oxygenation stone that's in a tri-clamp tee which I take off of the boil kettle and take to the fermenter to do in line carbing during transfer (have yet to actually do it, cause I'm doing pressure ferments most of the time).

Put it on the bottom dump and inject away. I know this is how some folks do it with big fermenters which don't have stones already in them (jerry-rig unitank), they just do it thru the bottom dump. Think I read that on the probrewer forums.
Thanks SankePankey, but that would work much the same as going into the beer-out dip tube and bubbling to the surface inside the keg. I would have to let pressure build otherwise I would have a ton of foam coming out the gas port on my tap connector.

Keep it coming guys! I am just hoping to hear that one idea that I couldn't think of that would easily aerate inside a keg. I'm still thinking filling to a pressure of O2 and shaking every 15min or so.
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Old 02-20-2011, 06:06 PM   #18
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I just no chill in one keg, make a good sized starter from left over wort, decant that into a new keg the next day and then rack the beer onto the starter, usually going through my gas-in to foam it up some. If I'm paranoid, I purge/lightly pressurize the second keg after adding the yeast with oxygen first, so that it splashes and mixes with pure oxygen, but I find that i don't need to in general. 8-10ppm with a good starter works pretty well for me. Under pressure, you get more dissolved everything, so that can help some.

But I think that you're trying to no-chill into one keg, and then never expose the contents of that keg to anything else if you don't have to, right? I'd say that you eiether need to push the oxygen in your dip tube and lightly pressurize like you siad, or use the 2-liter or whatever bottle setup to give yourself a large effective headspace that you oculd purge with O2. I tried to find the results of a guy that did just pressurize the headspace with oxygen and said it worked well, but I can't find them...

I'm still wondering that if you pressurize with oxygen if the pressure is going to essentially do the "shaking" for you...

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Old 02-20-2011, 06:21 PM   #19
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Some quotes from a guy undergoing some oxygen tests:

"According to Fix (Principles of Brewing Science) O2 uptake is very rapid by the yeast, usually within a few hours. Palmer states less than an hour. I assume this depends on how active the yeast are when pitching, but if pitching from a fresh starter, it seems reasonable that they're going to be taking up a lot of this O2 pretty quickly.

Too much O2 will result to overly vigorous fermentation and excessive yeast growth, potentially resulting in off flavors, particularly esters (Lewis/Young, Brewing), (Fix, Analysis of Brewing Techniques)."

http://blog.flaminio.net/blogs/index.php/beer/oxygen/

He says that his most consistent results have been from oxygenating the headspace and stirring/shaking, and that you don't need a lot of oxygen, you just need a good way to get it into solution. Just make sure that it's done before, or immediately after you pitch.

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Old 02-20-2011, 07:25 PM   #20
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Default Wow, really, already down to the last remaining question I have?

This is the kind of information I have been waiting for. I figure, from dorklord's info, that I will probably not have much negative pressure after my pitching method. Since my spunding valve will be on the fermentor when I am oxygenating the wort through the beer-out port, I can see the psi reading instantly.

Now I just need more definitive information on how much psi I should be looking for, so that when I start shaking I can see how much is going into solution.

I shake my keg at the end of primary anyway, to rouse yeast for better clean-up and to make sure I am getting my carbonation level right at the temperature it is at. So, this would just be more of that. Being a completely closed system outweighs this minimal of a hassle to me.

Quote:
So... Last remaining question is: At .5 gallons of head space, what psi of O2 is needed to be shaken and absorbed into solution to achieve the ppm desired for great fermentation?
I can't thank all of you guys enough for helping me think this think out. I am medicated from a bad upper respiratory infection and this stuff is easy to understand, so thanks again.
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