My first Bo Pils....need advice on decoctions!

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Joeneugs

Joeneugs

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I've been accepted in the master homebrewer competition by pilsner urquell in San Francisco this year. I think I got in over my head since I've never done a lager before let alone a Bo pils, not to mention the few kinks I'm still working out in my new all grain system. I know... What was I thinking, right?

Anyway, I have a dedicated fridge with a temp controller for lagering so that's not an issue. My questions are about chemistry more than anything.

I'm using 100% weyermann floor malted bohemian pilsner malt. Since its pretty well modified, I plan on doing an enhanced double decoction to minimize the protein rest. (Thanks to Kaiser for the great articles and videos). I also plan on using distilled water adjusted with a little calcium chloride. Should I adjust the water beforehand or wait and check the pH of the mash during the acid rest and adjust as needed?

At what point should I check the pH anyway, and what is the best way to do this for the style? Lactic acid? Acid malt addition? More calcium?

On a side note, I would like to try 2 batches 2 weeks apart. Would it be bad if I keep the first batch at 50 degrees F for the first two weeks of lagering while the second one ferments?

Thanks for all the great insights on this forum!
 
Anytime you boil grain, you'll extract tannins. If your pH is correct, the extraction may not be "excessive" but you're still extracting tannins. This may not be the most appropriate way to brew a delicate light lager.

Trumer uses what's called "endosperm mashing" where they keep the husks separate from the mash until lautering, IIRC.

I'm doing an experiment regarding this right now, but I won't have the results until sometime in June, so it probably won't help you. I'm comparing two BoPils-type beers, one brewed with a no-sparge single infusion, and the other with a modified triple decoction.
 
That sounds like a cool experiment. I would like to know if the decoctions are worth it.

I was under the impression that decoction is the way to go for Bohemian Pilsners when using all base malts. They traditionally have a heftier profile than their German cousins and I think this comes from the melanoidin production from boiling the grains.

I would actually like to do a side by side comparison with one brewed with a small amount of specialty malt using a step mash, and then one with all base malt and a double (or triple) decotion.

Anyone have an answer to my original question?
 
I don't think I'm going to fully answer your questions, but I'm going to give my two cents worth anyway....

I've looked at the PU contest, if they have it next year, I'll probably try to jump in the NY contest - it's a trip for me regardless. There is a thread or two about this, the winner last year posts on here, dig through some of his threads.

On your situation, I would probably skip the decoctions and do the following:
Add just a touch of melanoidin malt. I would probably add just a touch of rye as well, very small percentages IMO, just a few ounces. PU has some spiciness to it that I think the rye would add to it, moreso than just the saaz will. Do a very short protein rest (10-15 mins tops) and ramp up to your sacc rest, but mash a bit low, no more than 150 would be my suggestion. Pitch a lot of yeast, at least as much as the calcs say to use, pitch cold too.

On your mash/water - check it after you've doughed in, no sense in checking your water beforehand, you're really only interested in mash pH, nothing more. I don't know your water profile (of your tap), for me, I would use half distilled and half my tap water (I have good water though, and this would be appropriate for a pils - FOR ME). I think your plan of all distilled with some calcium chloride would be fine, follow the water primer on here. My guess is, if you do follow the primer, with distilled and the recommended CC, your mash pH will be fine. Use the acid malt as described there too.

If you're dead set on the decoctions, I'd try them out, but for this contest and this beer, I think they're unnecessary. No harm in leaving the first batch at 50 for a little longer.

Good luck on this, I think this is an awesome contest and would've tried it this year, but just isn't feasible for me.
 
I assume you've seen this already:
http://www.weyermann.de/downloads/pdf/Voigt_Poster_Trends in Brewing Ghent 2010.pdf

If you haven't that a good place to start.

My experiment is designed to test which method is better for an average homebrewer who only occasionally brews light lager-like beers. I don't think it will be definitive, but I've got four national-level judges who have volunteered to evaluate the beers side-by-side, and four "regular" non-judge brewers too, so I'm confident we'll at least get some qualified analysis.
 
Great suggestions, thanks! I dug up that thread about last years competition and you're right, it looks like most of the people that placed did not do decoctions.

Maybe I'll do 2 batches trying both methods and then pick the one I like the best.
 
If you plan on going ahead with the decoctions, pull 25% more volume than you think you'll need at each step. Add it back until you hit your target temp. If you have any left over, let it cool down until it's the same temp as the mash, then add it back.
 
StoneHands said:
I don't think I'm going to fully answer your questions, but I'm going to give my two cents worth anyway....

I've looked at the PU contest, if they have it next year, I'll probably try to jump in the NY contest - it's a trip for me regardless. There is a thread or two about this, the winner last year posts on here, dig through some of his threads.

On your situation, I would probably skip the decoctions and do the following:
Add just a touch of melanoidin malt. I would probably add just a touch of rye as well, very small percentages IMO, just a few ounces. PU has some spiciness to it that I think the rye would add to it, moreso than just the saaz will. Do a very short protein rest (10-15 mins tops) and ramp up to your sacc rest, but mash a bit low, no more than 150 would be my suggestion. Pitch a lot of yeast, at least as much as the calcs say to use, pitch cold too.

On your mash/water - check it after you've doughed in, no sense in checking your water beforehand, you're really only interested in mash pH, nothing more. I don't know your water profile (of your tap), for me, I would use half distilled and half my tap water (I have good water though, and this would be appropriate for a pils - FOR ME). I think your plan of all distilled with some calcium chloride would be fine, follow the water primer on here. My guess is, if you do follow the primer, with distilled and the recommended CC, your mash pH will be fine. Use the acid malt as described there too.

If you're dead set on the decoctions, I'd try them out, but for this contest and this beer, I think they're unnecessary. No harm in leaving the first batch at 50 for a little longer.

Good luck on this, I think this is an awesome contest and would've tried it this year, but just isn't feasible for me.
Click to expand...

This is good advice. I used aromatic malt instead of melanoidin and some home toasted malt as per the ingredient guideline table for Czech pils in the first edition of The Complete Joy of Homebrewing!! No decoction,
 
pjj2ba said:
This is good advice. I used aromatic malt instead of melanoidin and some home toasted malt as per the ingredient guideline table for Czech pils in the first edition of The Complete Joy of Homebrewing!! No decoction,
Click to expand...

I'm having a hard time telling the difference between aromatic and melanoidin. What flavor differences should I be looking for? Is it basically the same thing, just from different maltsters?
 
Nateo said:
I'm having a hard time telling the difference between aromatic and melanoidin. What flavor differences should I be looking for? Is it basically the same thing, just from different maltsters?
Click to expand...

Yeah, it is pretty similar, and does vary from malster to malster in name and flavor. I find aromatic to be maybe a little bit "toastier" and melanoidin a bit more neutral flavored - at least the ones I've used.
 
Nateo said:
I assume you've seen this already:
http://www.weyermann.de/downloads/pdf/Voigt_Poster_Trends in Brewing Ghent 2010.pdf
Click to expand...

I looked this over and would like to try their decoction schedule. So just to make sure I'm deciphering this right

Mash in to 100F for 30 minutes then pull my first decoction heating to 149F for 10 minutes. The majority of my mash is going to be at 100 for quite a while till I put my decoction back in. That can't be good - from what I've read.

After I add my first decoction back and I will have some random temp between 100 and 149. Do I heat my mashtun to get the whole batch up to 149 before I take my second decoction?

it's these little things about the process that confuse me.


Thanks for your help
 
I would mash in at 100F like they say, but I don't think it's necessary to hold it for 30 minutes. You want the mash to be fully wet/hydrated, and give it time to for the enzymes to get in solution. 30 minutes is fine, but probably 15 minutes at most is necessary.
Pull your first decoction and heat to 149 (stirring the whole time) and rest (I'd rest for longer than 10 minutes too). This rest is for the enzymes to convert what they can in your decoction volume. I'd probably rest this for 30 minutes or so. At this point you don't put it back in your main mash, you heat it to boiling and boil for at least 10 minutes. THEN you put it back in your main mash to raise it to 149. You shouldn't get the random temp between 100 and 149, if the volume of your pulled decoction was good, you'll hit 149 in your main mash when you dump in your boiling decoction. Let the main mash rest at the 149 for a while (again, probably 30-45 minutes or so) and then pull your second decoction.
So it's:
Infuse main mash to 100F
Let rest to hydrate
Pull your first decoction and heat (while stirring!) to 149F
Let decocoted volume rest to convert (30 minutes or so)
Continue heating decoction to boiling
Boil for 10 minutes or longer
Add boiling decoction back to main mash to raise main mash temp from 100F to 149F
Let main mash rest to convert (30 minutes or so again)
Pull second decoction
Boil
Add back to main mash again

Does this help?

Oh, you're OK on the long acid rest with fully modified malt especially. A long protein rest is less than ideal, but acid rest is OK IMO.
 
I agree with everything StoneHands said.
One thing I've done is add the first decoction back in stages to do a short protein rest. Add enough back to the mashtun to hit 133. Sit for 10 minutes, then add the rest to bring up to your first sacrification rest.

My understanding is that they used to sit at 100 for a really long time do let the mash acidify. But this takes hours (like 3 hours or more). So sitting there for a while isn't really a bad thing. Once everything is is mixed and hydrated, no need to wait before beginning the decoction.

I also like doing the iodine test on the bit you're decocting. Then you can just wait till its done converting and then proceed to boil it.

I've done 2 bo pils using the floor malted weyermann malt and decoction. The second one really came out well. For 5 gallon batch I did:
RO water treated with 4g CaCl split evenly between strike and sparge water.
10 lbs Pils
5 oz acid malt
90 min boil
1.25 oz Saaz @ 60
2.5 oz Saaz @ 30
1 oz Saaz @ 10
1 oz Saaz @ 0

Lots of O2 and Lots of yeast. Pitch at 45 and let rise to 55 over 7 days. D-Rest at 68 for 4 days.
I brewed this at the end of October. I've been drinking it slowly to see how age affects it. Its realllly tasting good right now. It was still good earlier, but its much cleaner after a solid 8+ weeks of lagering. The only semi-hiccup was that all the protein coagulation made for a more difficult sparge. Since I batch sparge, it wasn't a huge deal - but it was a bit gluey and I had to stir a couple times. You might consider throwing some rice hulls in as you add your last decoction prior to sparging.

Do heed the advice to take a bit more than the calculators say you need. I've never hit the temps with the volumes they give me.

I'm not 100% sure if the decoction makes a huge difference or not. It was fun to do because I had the time. The beer sure tastes good. Its amazing how dry the beer is and yet still comes off malty. I'm going to try it again with a more simple infusion mash and see if I notice the difference.

Don't stress too much during the process!
 
One thing to add...
I was a dyed in the wool batch sparger, saw no reason EVER to change on the homebrew level, until I did my first decoction. mjohnson's post above reminded me when he mentioned batch sparging. The amount of protein that you get in your mash tun, especially with pilsner malt for some reason, is huge. I think with a decoction, you get your biggest benefit from the process by also fly sparging. I'll batch sparge everything else, but when decocting, I'm fly sparging. With a fly sparge, you can leave all of this protein break in your tun and it doesn't end up in your wort.
 
mi6op said:
I'm going to be using the Weyermann Floor malted Bo-Pils Malt. My understanding is it is less than well modified. But Reading MJohnson I guess it shouldn't matter.
Click to expand...

Thats the malt I used. It turned out great and mind probably sat at 100 for about an hour while I did the protein rest and first decoction. No adverse effects.
 
Weyermann is a great malt for decoction mashing. It is kilned at a lower temp than other malt. The germination cycle is held at a colder temp. If the entire process is spot on, there is no reason for a diacetyl rest. There is no sense to take Lager yeast to Ale temp unless it is absolutely necessary. I have never had to do a diacetyl rest in Pils or Lagers that were brewed using a tri-decoction done correctly, using enough good yeast and O2. It's best to monitor the pH when using floor malt. This is important for deciding at what temp the 1st decoction is to rest at for conversion. It's important because below pH 4.7 enzymatic activity is significantly reduced. If using RO or water low in alkalinity, it doesn't take too long to lower mash pH. Dough in with cold water to hydrate the malt. That way very little will take place, except for saturation and softening of the husk. Fire the tun to reach acid rest temp. At rest temp 133F, phytase is percipitating calcium and magnesium phosphate, further lowering pH. Beta is active at 133F, working on amylose and amylopectin very slowly, when the pH is in the right band. A 10 minute rest at 133F, action of any kind is very limited, being close to useless. Even though 149F was used for conversion. The finest Pils and Lagers are converted between 153 and 155F. Usually, the 2nd decoction is rested at lower beta temps, usually below gelatinizing temps. The 1st decoction is rested at alpha temps. The reason being is that pH is higher during the 1st decoction that alpha favors. Do not take the main mash from acid rest temp to 149F using the 1st decoction. With Weyermann floor malt, do a protein rest 128 to 130F in the mash tun for as long as it takes to do the 2nd decoction. Skip the protein rest in the 2nd decoction. In the first decoction, do a protein rest at 122-125F before going to a conversion rest. Raise the main mash to 128-130F using the 1st decoction. Pull the 2nd decoction as soon as the main mash temp is balanced and hold the temp closely in the tun. A 10 minute boil isn't long enough to boil out protein gum that can stick the mash at sparge. Checking the goop that lays on the filter bed will determine if the process is done correctly. If the goop is gummy/pastey. You failed. If there is very little goop the protein rest was done incorrectly. You failed. Decoction when done correctly, rarely have a stuck sparge. Batch sparging decoction is sacrilege.
 
Vlad, I'm having trouble figuring out what your schedule would be for a recipe that includes acid malt.

Dough in @ 100F to hydrate grain
Pull first decoction
Rest first decoction @ 129F for ???? minutes
Rest first decoction @ 158F until converted (alpha rest)
Boil first decoction (for how long?)
Add first decoction to main mash to raise to 129F
Pull second decoction
Rest second decoction @ 147F until converted
Boil second decoction (for how long?)
Add second decoction to main mash to raise to 147F?
Then what?

What should the goop look like? Seems like you say it can't be gummy/pasty, but still has to be there?

Why would batch sparging mess anything up? As long as you recirculate a little bit each time, why would it matter?
 

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