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Old 01-10-2013, 07:07 PM   #21
Gavagai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david_42 View Post
Hop oils come in a range of chemical weights. The heavier ones, we call flavor; lighter ones, aroma. The longer the hops are in the beer, the wider range of oils that are extracted. A two-stage dry hopping would get mostly the lightest oils, whereas a longer period would also extract the heavier oils.
This doesn't explain the difference between, say, a 2 stage dry-hop with each stage consisting of 2 ounces and lasting three days, and a single stage dry hop of 4 ounces lasting three days. At some point I imagine that having less hops in a beer at a time would increase efficiency of extraction, especially with whole hops, but it's hard for me to believe that a couple of ounces of pellets makes much of a difference. It also bugs me that people treat whole and pellet dry hopping as equivalent, even though we know that pellets extract more quickly.
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:08 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by dickproenneke View Post
Sorry, I was going off of the "50-75%" figure. But I get it now. The goal is to maintain the CO2 blanket while swapping DH additions and a carboy is better at doing that than a bucket.
Yes, but FYI 5 gallons in a 6.5 gallon carboy is approx. 3/4 of the 6.5 volume

6.5 / 4 = 1.625 x 4.875
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:18 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbrews View Post
Yes, but FYI 5 gallons in a 6.5 gallon carboy is approx. 3/4 of the 6.5 volume

6.5 / 4 = 1.625 x 4.875
Approximations are close enough for me
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:43 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Gavagai View Post
This doesn't explain the difference between, say, a 2 stage dry-hop with each stage consisting of 2 ounces and lasting three days, and a single stage dry hop of 4 ounces lasting three days.
This is exactly why I started this thread. I understand what David is saying in his comment (lighter molecules being called into play during a 72hour DHing, not the heavy ones called at 7 days) but it still doesn't explain why 2-2oz DH additions @ 3 days each is any different than 1-4oz DH @ 3days... I've read the Vinnie C article on brewing 2xIPAs (Zymurgy July/Aug09) which touches on multiple DH additions, but he never really explains why it's preferable over a large single DH addition. He does state that if you leave the DH in the beer too long you can lose some aroma.
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:47 PM   #25
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I emailed Matt Brynildson (Firestone Walker) about this question. Here is his response:

Quote:
We know that yeast activity can result in positive changes to hop oils.
Adding hops toward the end of fermentation (or during fermentation for
that matter) can result in some positive aroma compounds that carry
through to the finished product. The problem is that hop oils can be
scrubbed out of the beer through fermentation (CO2 evolution) and there
are losses due to hop components (oils and resins) adhering to the yeast
cell and being removed from the beer. In other words, dry hopping in the
presence of yeast has some proven positive flavor effects but negative
extraction effects. Once the yeast has been largely removed from the
beer, there is opportunity for better extraction of raw hop character. So
we do both. We try to take advantage of both possible extraction
opportunities and our belief is that we get a more well rounded hop aroma
with high overall hop impact.

The theoretical justification could be argued and certainly great beers
are made with single dry hop additions. The boys at Lagunitas do a single
hop pellet addition for dry hopping and they get a very high hop impact.
You could compare a Union Jack and a Lagunitas IPA and decide which method
you prefer (of course the hop variety, time on the hops, amount of hops
and temperature of the dry hop all play into the equation.)

There are very few straight answers in brewing.
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:44 PM   #26
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Thanks for this info. Matt is certainly a master at his craft. I have yet to taste a FW brew that I didn't like... So what MAtt is saying is that the 1st DH addition is added while primary fermentation is still taking place (in the presence of yeast). The green beer takes on some of the properties of the DH but others, like certain aromas(?), are scrubbed out by the CO2. The result being decidedly different than a beer DH'd after primary fermentation. The 2nd DH then brings some of those properties, lost by CO2 scrubbing, back into the final beer... Heavy stuff but I think I got it.

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Old 01-16-2013, 06:57 AM   #27
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Thanks for asking the question. I'm surprised that this issue hasn't been discussed more, considering what a big part of the flavor of an IPA dry hopping is. I think for my next IPA I'll add a small addition just after high krausen, then a larger addition after fermentation is complete.

The real work to be done is determining which hops (or, ideally, which hop compounds) work best as late kettle, whirlpool, first dry hop, or second dry hop additions. It's a tall order, and we may never get there, but I think we should start experimenting under this paradigm if we really want to improve our IPAs.

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Old 01-16-2013, 07:27 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavagai View Post
Thanks for asking the question. I'm surprised that this issue hasn't been discussed more, considering what a big part of the flavor of an IPA dry hopping is. I think for my next IPA I'll add a small addition just after high krausen, then a larger addition after fermentation is complete.
I think I'll try the same technique but not after full krausen. I'll wait until fermentation is complete and yeast is in suspension then dry hop on primary, rack to secondary, then dry hop there too. It should be a fun beer.
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Old 01-16-2013, 01:40 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinyBuddha

I think I'll try the same technique but not after full krausen. I'll wait until fermentation is complete and yeast is in suspension then dry hop on primary, rack to secondary, then dry hop there too. It should be a fun beer.
My thoughts exactly.
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Old 01-17-2013, 04:16 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavagai View Post
Thanks for asking the question. I'm surprised that this issue hasn't been discussed more, considering what a big part of the flavor of an IPA dry hopping is. I think for my next IPA I'll add a small addition just after high krausen, then a larger addition after fermentation is complete.
You can try that. However, reading the IPA book (or maybe it was an interview) that first addition is towards the end of fermentation. Perhaps the last 25% of fermentation or just few gravity points from the FG. I would think that doing it too soon would strip out too much of the benefits of dry hopping.
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