Happy HolidaySs Giveaway - Winners Re-Re-Re-Drawn - 24 hours to Claim!

Get your HBT Growlers, Shirts and Membership before the Rush!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > General Techniques > Making dark candi sugar
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 11-12-2012, 05:41 PM   #11
Denny
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Eugene OR
Posts: 4,318
Liked 440 Times on 332 Posts
Likes Given: 545

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheezydemon3 View Post
Must admit Ive never tasted the real deal.

Mine tasted like the finest dark caramel i have ever tasted. Stuck to your teeth like crazy.
Which is nothing like the "real" thing.
__________________

Life begins at 60....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

http://www.experimentalbrew.com - the website for the book "Experimental Homebrewing"...coming Nov. 2014

Denny is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-12-2012, 05:46 PM   #12
Denny
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Eugene OR
Posts: 4,318
Liked 440 Times on 332 Posts
Likes Given: 545

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcwilcr View Post
Its funny how my brain and the annals of HBT seem to track with one another. I've noticed the same thing as Denny when it comes to homemade candi sugar not having the same complexities as the D2 or D180 available commercially. I've made some good Candi before that made great beer but I'm in the middle of building a recipe for a belgian dark strong and have been doing a lot of digging on the internet about making maillard reaction and carmalization and think I might be onto something that could help improve my homemade candi. It seems like there are two major things we miss when making candi sugar at home, PH and amino acid content. There seems to be a general consensus that higher PH results in more complex and "better" Candi. The amino acids are aparently what are responsible for the different flavors and we loose most of this because we typically start with refined table sugar. My hope is to increase PH by adding pickling lime to my candi and re-introduce some of the amino acids by adding some molasses or treacle since they are much less refined than table sugar.
Here's some info about how candisyrup.com does it..

http://www.candisyrup.com/faq.html

Interesting quotes...

"Simplicity is a true blonde syrup that undergoes multiple thermal stages to develop its unique flavor"

"No acids or preservatives are used at any stage in process of making any of our syrups"

"Most brewers yeast has a preference pH range of approximately 5.1 -5.5 PH. Candi Syrup, Inc's syrups are intended to have a minimal impact on wort pH to assure the best fermentability possible"

"Candi Syrup, Inc. uses only Beet sugar and a small amount of raw "Date" sugar (only in D-180) to add a rich undertone of flavor "
__________________

Life begins at 60....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

http://www.experimentalbrew.com - the website for the book "Experimental Homebrewing"...coming Nov. 2014

Denny is offline
MattHollingsworth Likes This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-12-2012, 08:18 PM   #13
mcwilcr
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 885
Liked 78 Times on 61 Posts
Likes Given: 42

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny View Post
Here's some info about how candisyrup.com does it..

http://www.candisyrup.com/faq.html


"Most brewers yeast has a preference pH range of approximately 5.1 -5.5 PH. Candi Syrup, Inc's syrups are intended to have a minimal impact on wort pH to assure the best fermentability possible"
I never do any adjustment on PH and my local water has a PH of about 7.7. Thats not excessively high but if I go adding candy syrup with even higher PH I might need to think about adding some gypsum or something to my mash later down the road. Food for thought...
__________________
mcwilcr is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-12-2012, 08:19 PM   #14
MattHollingsworth
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Samobor, Croatia
Posts: 1,612
Liked 31 Times on 29 Posts
Likes Given: 37

Default

The dark candi sugar I've used in the past, from Brouwland in Belgium, was more watery than carmelized sugar that's homemade. And tasted a lot different, IMHO.

I'm going to go ahead and order some when the time comes and just eat it on the shipping. I'll try the D180. I figure it's worth it for a one off batch of a Quad that's intended for aging. Might as well spring for it.

__________________
HOMEBREWING SINCE 1997
MattHollingsworth is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-12-2012, 10:20 PM   #15
Denny
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Eugene OR
Posts: 4,318
Liked 440 Times on 332 Posts
Likes Given: 545

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcwilcr View Post
I never do any adjustment on PH and my local water has a PH of about 7.7. Thats not excessively high but if I go adding candy syrup with even higher PH I might need to think about adding some gypsum or something to my mash later down the road. Food for thought...
But what's your mah pH? That's what matters, not your water pH so much. And an acid like lactic or phosphoric works better to reduce pH unless you need the added sulfate for bitterness.
__________________

Life begins at 60....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

http://www.experimentalbrew.com - the website for the book "Experimental Homebrewing"...coming Nov. 2014

Denny is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-12-2012, 10:31 PM   #16
mcwilcr
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 885
Liked 78 Times on 61 Posts
Likes Given: 42

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny

But what's your mah pH? That's what matters, not your water pH so much. And an acid like lactic or phosphoric works better to reduce pH unless you need the added sulfate for bitterness.
Yeah, I'm not really sure what my mash ph is since I've never adjusted it based on conversations I've had with the guys at my LHBS and a couple of local commercial brewers who have all said it is not a huge issue here. I was just thinking that if I go adding ingredients with high ph I might need to consider measuring and adjusting my ph for that beer.
__________________
Mcwilcr Keezer build
mcwilcr is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-12-2012, 10:43 PM   #17
beergolf
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
beergolf's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: collingswood, nj
Posts: 4,128
Liked 409 Times on 331 Posts
Likes Given: 134

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny View Post
I have tried many different version of homemade candi syrups, but I've never tasted one that tasted like the real thing. IMO, it's worth spending the money.
I totally agree with this. The real thing gives flavors that really come through in the brew. I will spend the couple of bucks for the real thing to make my brews better. D-180 is a great product.
__________________
beergolf is offline
MattHollingsworth Likes This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-10-2013, 03:58 AM   #18
Trillium
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 62
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

I've been doing some research on this topic of homemade candi syrup and have come to the conclusion that every video or recipe I have watched and read is pretty much all wrong. Just inverting and caramelizing sugar does not produce Candi Sugar and neither does using of DAP. I think the use of DAP as a source of nitrogen was an incorrect interpretation of the Maillard reaction.

I'm convinced that Amino acids, which are responsible for the Maillard reactions, is the key to producing the dark brown color, aroma, and flavor of Candi Syrup. Some amino acids produce caramel aromas such as Glycine, some produce fruity flavors and aromas such as Serine. In fact there are probably hundreds of amino acids at work which produce the final flavour of the syrup. One consumer product mentions that is it simply just beet juice that has been boiled down into a syrup. This reminded me of how Maple Syrup is made. Maple sap comes out of the tree as a clear sweet liquid that has no maple syrup flavor. All of the color and flavor in maple syrup comes from the Maillard reaction as it is boiled down into a syrup. In fact, I have a feeling that Belgian Candi Syrup is made the same way

Trying to make the syrup from refined beet sugar just won't work as it contains no amino acids. It was all stripped out during the refining process. On the other hand the juice from sugar beets contains many amino acids. I think this is the secret. Not sure where you would get unrefined sugar beet sugar from thou. I guess you could grow your own and create a syrup out of that. I was thinking of trying to make a syrup out of Date Sugar since this also contains many amino acids and is readily available. Date sugar is dried and ground dates, so you would need to soak it and strain it first. Won't be the same as sugar beet juice, but as an experiment it’s worth a try.

Google the following papers I found
1) The Maillard Reaction Application to Confectionery Products
2) Sensory aroma from Maillard reaction of individual and combinations of amino acids with glucose in acidic conditions

__________________
Trillium is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-10-2013, 02:56 PM   #19
cheezydemon3
Registered User
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: louisville
Posts: 12,967
Liked 1649 Times on 1240 Posts
Likes Given: 3007

Default

I am not convinced that inverted caramalized sugar is "Not Good Enough" just because it isn't what the ancient Belgians use.

"Not the Same" I perfectly agree with.

I also understand wanting to replicate what belgian sugar does. NO quarrel there.

I do think that the inverted caramelized sugar has it's uses.

__________________
cheezydemon3 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-10-2013, 03:39 PM   #20
mcwilcr
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 885
Liked 78 Times on 61 Posts
Likes Given: 42

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trillium
I've been doing some research on this topic of homemade candi syrup and have come to the conclusion that every video or recipe I have watched and read is pretty much all wrong. Just inverting and caramelizing sugar does not produce Candi Sugar and neither does using of DAP. I think the use of DAP as a source of nitrogen was an incorrect interpretation of the Maillard reaction.

I'm convinced that Amino acids, which are responsible for the Maillard reactions, is the key to producing the dark brown color, aroma, and flavor of Candi Syrup. Some amino acids produce caramel aromas such as Glycine, some produce fruity flavors and aromas such as Serine. In fact there are probably hundreds of amino acids at work which produce the final flavour of the syrup. One consumer product mentions that is it simply just beet juice that has been boiled down into a syrup. This reminded me of how Maple Syrup is made. Maple sap comes out of the tree as a clear sweet liquid that has no maple syrup flavor. All of the color and flavor in maple syrup comes from the Maillard reaction as it is boiled down into a syrup. In fact, I have a feeling that Belgian Candi Syrup is made the same way

Trying to make the syrup from refined beet sugar just won't work as it contains no amino acids. It was all stripped out during the refining process. On the other hand the juice from sugar beets contains many amino acids. I think this is the secret. Not sure where you would get unrefined sugar beet sugar from thou. I guess you could grow your own and create a syrup out of that. I was thinking of trying to make a syrup out of Date Sugar since this also contains many amino acids and is readily available. Date sugar is dried and ground dates, so you would need to soak it and strain it first. Won't be the same as sugar beet juice, but as an experiment it’s worth a try.

Google the following papers I found
1) The Maillard Reaction Application to Confectionery Products
2) Sensory aroma from Maillard reaction of individual and combinations of amino acids with glucose in acidic conditions
I agree with you to a certain extent that it is the amino acids which is the reason DAP, a derivative of amino acids, and also peptides that are responsible for the mallard reaction. I believe it is also correct that because we are all starting with refined sugar is the reason we can't seem to quite get the same flavor as D-180 as an example. I have to agree with Cheezydemon3 that just because its not exact that its no good though.

I have recently been playing around with adding some unrefined sugars to the recipe, mainly treacle and molasses to try and re-introduce some of the amino acids and peptides that are stripped in the refinement process and did get some pretty nice results. Not nice enough that I used them in my big expensive BDS but with a bit more refinement and practice I bet I could get real damn close.
__________________
Mcwilcr Keezer build
mcwilcr is offline
cheezydemon3 Likes This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Making Dark Candi Syrup SpanishCastleAle Recipes/Ingredients 20 01-30-2014 02:34 AM
Help with Dark Candi Sugar in Recipes? ultravista Recipes/Ingredients 2 07-03-2012 03:07 PM
How much dark candi sugar? cladinshadows Fermentation & Yeast 3 11-02-2011 06:06 PM
Dark candi sugar vs. syrup andreiz Recipes/Ingredients 4 11-15-2010 12:30 AM
Dark Candi sugar? neldred Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 4 10-15-2009 05:58 PM



Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS