Liquid yeast slow to take off

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mike004

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My first attempt with liquid yeast (Wyeast 2206 bavarian lager).
I smacked the pack, left it to rise for 2 days.
Then pitched into a 3 gallon wort.

No activity after after 48 hrs...should I be worrying yet?

Are smack packs without a starter usually slow to take off?

Mike
 
>Was the smack pack bulging when you pitched the contents? < Yes
>Do you have krausen yet? < No.
> What type of fermenter are you using?< Plastic 5 gallon bin.

Mike
 
>what was the temp of the wort when you pitched the yeast<

I didn't take the temp. I did what I normally do: cooled the wort boil in the sink and dumped it in a couple of gallons of cool water in the primary.

> and what is the temp now?<

I assume it is at or near room temp.

Mike
 
mike004 said:
>what was the temp of the wort when you pitched the yeast<

I didn't take the temp. I did what I normally do: cooled the wort boil in the sink and dumped it in a couple of gallons of cool water in the primary.

> and what is the temp now?<

I assume it is at or near room temp.

I'd say the temp might be an issue with a lager yeast. Room temp is way to warm for that yeast. It wants to work in the 48F-58F range (optimally 48F).

From Palmer's online book:

"The pitching temperature should be the same as the fermentation temperature to prevent thermally shocking the yeast. In other words, you will need to chill the wort down to 45 - 55 °F before pitching the yeast."

He also mentions that lager yeasts should utilize a VERY large starter, so maybe the lack of a starter and the warm temps have caused a problem?

-walker
 
Walker's right on (as usual), but before you do anything drastic, I would suggest shaking/swirling the ferment bucket (with the lid and airlock still on!) and see if that helps within 6-12 hours. This happened to me a couple batches ago and the swirling did it for me. I don't know if the wort wasn't aerated enough at pitch or if the yeast settled early or what, but it helped.

Of course, if you still have any of this yeast left over, re-pitching a larger starter wouldn't hurt.
 
so pitching more yeast will get fermentation going again, but is there such a thing as too much yeast? Would it effect the taste? I ask becuase my fermentation seems to have stopped after only 48 hours. And I am not quite sure this is normal using wyeast activator english ale yeast. It has been at 72 degrees since pitching.
 
fearthechin said:
so pitching more yeast will get fermentation going again, but is there such a thing as too much yeast? Would it effect the taste?

More yeast might get fermentation going again... if there is anything left to ferment. Yeast definately has a taste, but I think you would have to put a VERY large amount of yeast in to 'over-yeast' your beer.

fearthechin said:
I ask becuase my fermentation seems to have stopped after only 48 hours. And I am not quite sure this is normal using wyeast activator english ale yeast. It has been at 72 degrees since pitching.

48 hours is not necessarily abnormal. I've had them go faster than that.

I can't believe I'm going to say this (because I really despise the device), but you should take a hydrometer reading to be really REALLY certain that fermentation is done.

You might also want to rouse the yeast by roughing up the fermenter a bit. This can kick-start a second round of fermentation.

I followed the letter of the law with my 80/- ale, and kept the temp between 55 and 65 degrees for the entire primary fermentaiton. Those temps caused my fermentation to last a very.... long.... time. It never bubbled more than once every 12 seconds, but it kept steadily chugging along like that for about 10 days.

After this, I roused the yeast twice a day, every day, for another 4 or 5 days. The rousings on the first couple days I did kicked off quite a bit more bubbling. Sure, some of that was CO2 escaping the beer, but some it was not (because it kept bubbling for hours and hours after rousing.)

-walker
 
Walker said:
I'd say the temp might be an issue with a lager yeast. Room temp is way to warm for that yeast. It wants to work in the 48F-58F range (optimally 48F).

He also mentions that lager yeasts should utilize a VERY large starter, so maybe the lack of a starter and the warm temps have caused a problem?

-walker

I'm certain the temperature is NOT the problem (IFF wort temp at pitching was less than 37 deg C). I've used the barvarian yeast at warm temps before works great. If you look at the peer reviewed scientific literature about either basic science of yeast or brewing there are a lot of different viewpoints. I personally think Palmer is wrong and I've researched heat shock and growth properties of bacteria and yeast. It was a while back but there hasn't be a major paradigm shift in yeast growth curves probably decades.

First, lager yeast decrease their doubling rate as a function of temp. The lower the temp (to a point) the slower they will divide. Most yeast lager and ale yeast reach maximal division rate between 30 to 37 degrees C. This is well above room temp and well above lager temp. If you want to prove it...take a A600 reading every 30 min-1 hour at different temperatures. I've had one of my classes do this for a lab experiment...this is a standard microbiology experiment.

Second, lager yeast tolerate cold temperatures better than ale yeast. This does not mean they will not grow at warmer or are more efficeint at colder temperatures but we are exploiting a known trait to produce a better beer. To oversliplfy the exact cellular mechanisms...what you are doing is forcing the yeast to not prefer any one energy source.

Third, thermal shock can occur by either too much change in temperature either way. You don't want to be too high....42 deg C induced major changes in the proteomic landscape via induction of HSPs. Too cold also induces HSPs, and ribosomal RNA synthesis...but yeast don't usually die from too cold (unless frozen).

Finally, unless his wort was greater than 42 deg its doubtfull that his yeast died from temperature. What I'm worried about is the 2 days for the package to come alive. This yeast was a primary canidate for a starter! Make sure you have a well aereated starter that you continue to aereate throughout the growth. Aereration during the starter builds up glycogen that helps the yeast during the aerobic/anaerobic shift). The wort also sounds like it may have not had enough oxygen dissolved. From personal and helping others out....the barvarian yeast requires good aereation of the wort. Also a buddy of mine has used this yeast at room temperature to produce a good albiet dryer lager. The beer feremented out faster than the equivilent beer at colder temps (can provide graphs if necessary).

Pitch more yeast and aerate the beer! I think you had a old/bad batch of yeast. Look for the newest packet you can find that is not near the back of the fridge (sometime it get too cold and will decrease viablity).

Good luck! I'd write more but I have to get back to work.

-Eric
 
OP here:

3 days in and there is no krausen or bubbling activity.
The brew smell strongly of malt, but no alcohol smell!
I shook the brew last night.
However, there is a *very deep* trub with this brew -- 4 to 6 inches!
Ok, I used 2 oz of hop plugs in the boil and dumped this in the primary along with the wort, so I expected some trub. But this is surprising.

The Wyeast smack pack was not out of date...

Any ideas?
I can't decide whether to pitch dry yeast or to let the brew take its natural course, for better or worse...

Mike
 
Did you take a hydrometer reading? You really need to know if any fermentaton took place when you weren't looking. If the SG is still high, near where you started, pitch more of the same type of yeast. Three days is too long. Make sure your airate before pitching the new yeast.
 
mike004 said:
OP here:

3 days in and there is no krausen or bubbling activity.
The brew smell strongly of malt, but no alcohol smell!
I shook the brew last night.
However, there is a *very deep* trub with this brew -- 4 to 6 inches!
Ok, I used 2 oz of hop plugs in the boil and dumped this in the primary along with the wort, so I expected some trub. But this is surprising.

The Wyeast smack pack was not out of date...

Any ideas?
I can't decide whether to pitch dry yeast or to let the brew take its natural course, for better or worse...

Mike


I still have a funny feeling about the packet of yeast. If it wasn't out of date it should have been like a little CO2 bomb after 8-12 hours. It is possible that the yeast were stored funny and did not have proper viability.

If the gravity hasn't changed much...pitch more yeast. I would suggest using a Kolsch yeast at this point and make it an Alt like beer just to get on with the process. It will be a fairly clean beer but not as good as a lager.

Good news! Your sanitation process seems to be very good :)....so the beer should be fine!

-Eric
 
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