Lager Yeast Pitching Question. What Temp?

The instructions on the recipe say pitch at 55, the instructions on the yeast say 70 - 75. It's a copenhagen lager yeast from white labs. It's my first attempt at a lager.

I did my first true lager on Friday. Here's the deal: 55f is the optimum (roughly, depending on the strain) fermentation temp. However, it's important to allow fermentation to begin in earnest before you drop the temp that low. What I did was, pitch at room temp (after making a 1000ml starter the day before, of course), and keep it in the mid 60's for the night. The next morning, there were visible signs of fermentation (krausen, airlock bubbles), so I then transferred it to my lagerator and dropped the temp down to 52, which is where it sits as we speak.

If you pitch an ample amount of healthy yeast, then the best temperture would be at your fermenting tempertures (about 50f to 55f).
If you pitch less than an ample amount of healthy yeast then pitch to warmer wort.
Not hard to figure which is best.

I've read you'll also want to get your brew down to the fermenting temp prior to pitching.

homebrewer_99 said:

I've read you'll also want to get your brew down to the fermenting temp prior to pitching.

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Hey, I'm putting this one on YOU guys. Yes, I'm talking to you, HBT members. I put out a poll asking whether one should drop it to fermentation temps right away, or let fermentation start...and by an overwhelming margin, you so-called "Elitist Ass-C*nts" told me to pitch at room temp (regardless of whether a starter was involved), wait for visible signs of fermentation, and THEN drop temps to lagering range.

Papazian also instructed same.

Now you tell me to drop temps BEFORE visible signs are evident? Pssshaw! Cain't trust NOONE, dammit!

Seriously, I guess this'll never be solved...but we'll see how my method works out for me. I really don't think there's gonna be a whole lot of difference...

The manufacturer always suggests pitching at warmer temperatures b/c the yeast will start earlier and ferment more vigorously. This, to us consumers, seems like "good yeast" and we will be more likely to buy again.

The truth, however, is that 55 degrees (or thereabouts) is the optimal fermentation temp for most lager strains. This means that the best yeast-influenced flavors will occur in a beer that has been fermented at these colder temperatures.

To put it as simply as possible. You should pitch at colder temperatures. If your brewing practices are sanitary, you should have nothing to worry about in terms of infection during a bit longer lag time.

If you are worried about having this longer lag time, the yeast will create a lot of diacetyl during this early warmer stage - b/c they are more active/vigorous, they will create this off-flavor. This will make a diacetyl rest very important.

I have this strange idea that the yeast growers know what is best for yeast growth and brewers know what is best for the beer. The only way to deal with this is to pitch at 70F, let the yeast grow and when they start fermenting (AKA making beer), lower the temperature to the fermentation range (50-55).

I'll preface my comments by saying that all I brew is lagers - usually 2 to 4 batches a month. I'm actually somewhere in the middle on this. I usually try to get my wort as cool as I practically can in a short amount of time (this reduces the amount of DMS you get) - which is usually about 60 degrees for my current system. I then cool to around 52 at the first sign of fermentation. This has worked out well - good clean flavors with no apparent "ale notes".

I have to admit though, that if I could quickly cool the wort to 52 degrees and pitch at that temperature, I would.

david_42 said:

I have this strange idea that the yeast growers know what is best for yeast growth and brewers know what is best for the beer. The only way to deal with this is to pitch at 70F, let the yeast grow and when they start fermenting (AKA making beer), lower the temperature to the fermentation range (50-55).

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Yeast growers know what's best for yeast, but brewers know what is best for beer. Listen to the advice of good brewers. They will tell you to pitch cold.

Hope that answered your question Sugar! LOL

Obviously there is a lot of disagreement on this issue. People make good lager using both techniques. Diacetyl will build up more in lagers that are started warm and a diacetyl rest is very important and timing can be a little difficult. If you start fermentation at optimum temp with an adequate pitching rate a diacetyl rest is much less critical and an extended lagering time will usually give the yeast plenty of opportunity to clean up the diacetyl without a rest at all.

Evan! said:

Hey, I'm putting this one on YOU guys. Yes, I'm talking to you, HBT members. I put out a poll asking whether one should drop it to fermentation temps right away, or let fermentation start...and by an overwhelming margin, you so-called "Elitist Ass-C*nts" told me to pitch at room temp (regardless of whether a starter was involved), wait for visible signs of fermentation, and THEN drop temps to lagering range.

Papazian also instructed same.

Now you tell me to drop temps BEFORE visible signs are evident? Pssshaw! Cain't trust NOONE, dammit!

Seriously, I guess this'll never be solved...but we'll see how my method works out for me. I really don't think there's gonna be a whole lot of difference...

Click to expand...

I'm with pitching at room temp, letting it do its thing for 24 hours then setting into the cold.

I am doing my first brew with San Fransisco Lager Yeast and plan to ferment at 58 degrees in my basement. I will bottle condition. Should I leave the bottles in the basement or should I condition at room temp?

I'm with pitching at fermentation temps. As long as you pitch a sufficient amount of yeast you avoid some potential issues.

Evan, I don't remember your particular thread, but this comes up fairly often as far as I recall the opinions are usually divided (as we see here). Sometimes you just have to make your own call. I know people who do it both ways and everything seems to come out fine, so I wouldn't sweat it too much. Try your next batch pitching at fermentation temps and see which you like better.

if you condition at room temp it will carbonate much faster. It really doesn't create any off flavors with so little sugar. You should be able to condition at fermentation (not lagering) temperature but it will take a lot longer. I think most folks here just condition at room temp.

This is why I'd like to have a Wiki going here. Once you understand how this warm/cold pitching thing for lagers comes from, you will be able to make that decision for yourself

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=17211&highlight=cold+pitching

Kai

I think a wiki is a great way to build the FAQs!

WikiWort FAQ

Up until last week I always pitched my lagers warm, I have now been sold on pitching cold. This time I made just shy of a 2liter starter over the course of about ten days, all under my desired ferment temp of 49 degrees. Each addition of fresh wort was chilled to 49 degrees before adding to the starter. A couple days before brew day I dropped the starter a few degrees. When I finally brewed I chilled the wort overnight to approx. 45 degrees, matching the starter. I pitched the next day and let the wort rise back up a few degrees to 49. I have a couple things to drill down such as needing to build up my yeast count.

There were a few reasons for changing to cold pitching, one was chilling an active fermentation. Doing so wants to make the yeast shut down, you should actually be bringing it up to the desired temp. Another was using a warmer temp for a quicker start. Slow starts should be avoided via proper pitching levels not using a warmer temp. I will see in a month or two the quality of the results.

If the best fermenting temp for lager yeast is 50f and you pitch at 70f to get it started, do you also pitch an ale yeast with an opt fermenting temp of 70f into wort at 90f to get it going faster?

Starting your fermentation for lager yeast at a higher temp will cause the yeast to develop esters and fusels that a diacetyl rest or any lagering after fermentation can't remove.

Pitch yeast at 5f below fermenting temps into wort at fermenting temps. A healthy starter of course!

Just as a side-note, there are home brewers out there who swear by warm pitching their lagers and have awards to prove that excellent beer can be made with that method. warm vs. cold pitching is certainly not as black and white as sanitation v.s no sanitation. Just make sure you know what you are doing and why.

Kai

There are different schools of thought on this, from cold pitching, to pitching at ale temps, and waiting til fermentation starts then crashing the temps to lager fermentation temps.
What I have concluded is that one should pitch a very generous lager yeast starter at lager yeast fermentation temps.

glibbidy said:

There are different schools of thought on this, from cold pitching, to pitching at ale temps, and waiting til fermentation starts then crashing the temps to lager fermentation temps.
What I have concluded is that one should pitch a very generous lager yeast starter at lager yeast fermentation temps.

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I think your conclusion is accurate.

Surely the lag time from pitching your starter until the yeast start fermenting ~20 hours would mean the wort has probably equalised to the ambient temperature of its surrondings ie your fermenting temp. The main advantage of pitching your cold starter into a cold wort at the same temp that i can see is that you won't be causing them undue thermal shock (they won't thank you for a very rapid drop or increase of several degrees).