Lager Question

I decided to take a swing at my first lager. I picked up a Brewer's Best Oktoberfest, but instead of using the dry ale yeast with the kit, I pitched WL820 Oktoberfest/Marzen (52~58F).

I didn't make a starter (see my other thread, where I am ordering a kit) and just pitched the one tube. Predictably, I had a slow start. I held it at 65 until it started bubbling....about 48hrs later. I then moved it to a different spot where it lowered to ~54F in about a day. It has sat in that spot bubbling away ever since. It is now 9-days in and bubbling at a rate of about 1 bubble every 7-seconds.

My question is this: When do I transfer to secondary? Having never done a lager and knowing the slow start, do I wait until bubbling slows to less than a minute? Rack after 14-days? Check gravity and rack at <50%OG? I don't want to rack early, but I also don't want to leave it on the trub too long.

Also, since this yeast is a little wamer than most lagers, and content in the mid-50's, do I need to do a Diacetyl rest? When?

-Todd

PS, sorry for all of the questions lately.

Sounds like you're doing just fine. A typical lager ferment can take two weeks or longer, possibly much longer with the lack of a starter. There is little risk of autolysis by leaving it in the primary too long as the yeast is preserved through refrigeration. I've left my lagers in primary for a month (long story) with no ill effects.

Knowing when to rack is a guessing game and I prefer not to waste beer or risk infection by frequently measuring SG. I would go by activity in the bubbler, and by physical appearance ie. lack of krausen. If both are good, I'd rack.

Whether you need to do a diacetyl rest or not is up to you and who you want to believe. It can't hurt, so why not.

Hey HomerT, I started my first lager at about the same time with a Festa Octoberfest Marzen and used Wyeast 2124. It sounds like we are having the exact same results, an conditions. I'm a couple days ahead of you and i'm still getting one bubble every 10sec.
Good luck lager buddy! We'll be best friends!

PS I'm planning to do a diacetyl rest at room temp for a day before sticking it in the fridge.
PPS Never apologize for asking questions. Unless you're a cop...

I experienced the same with all the lagers I did so far. It always took more then 2 weeks (or longer) for them to complete. Even the last one, where I was able to pitch the recommended 2 cups of yeast slurry.

The problem might be that the yeast settles on the bottom and gets burried by even more yeast. The burried yeast can't really help with the fermentation since it isn't getting anything to ferment. I'm not sure how commercial breweries do it when they can do the primary fermentation for a lager in 7 days. They must be stirring up the yeast once in a while.

Kai

most large scale breweries like AB have horizontal fermentation tanks. that way the little buggars don't stack up on top of each other so much as they do in vertical fermenters.

So, maybe I'll just lay my carboy on it's side to speed things up!

DeRoux's Broux said:

most large scale breweries like AB have horizontal fermentation tanks. that way the little buggars don't stack up on top of each other so much as they do in vertical fermenters.

Click to expand...

Makes sense, but when I look at German brewery pictures, I see the usual conical fermentation tanks used for the primary fermentation. I know that there is a lot of circulation during the fermentation. This may actually keep enough yeast suspended to get the job done in 7 days.

Would a stir mechanism (similar to a magnetic stir plate) help. Not enough to actually create a vortex but to keep the yeast from settling completely. Not that I plan to go that route. But it is just a thought.

Kai

Cheyco said:

So, maybe I'll just lay my carboy on it's side to speed things up!

Click to expand...

many use korny kegs to ferment/lager their lagers, so the can lay them on their side. just becomes a space issue, unless you have a whooper of a chest freezer (like Beermaker!).

i've seen it both ways too Kai, but have read that the horizontal tanks work best for lager brews. probably like us, an available space issue?

Well, do to the higher temps for the WL820 (52~58), mine has just been going in the basement floor, need the walkout door. It holds an even 54F there. I chose this as my first, because I don't have a lagering fridge.

-Todd

HomerT,
I just did my first lager in a couple years last weekend (Munnich Helles) with a WL830 yeast. I am having similar results--quiet start at room temperature (although within 24 hours), transferered to my basement (55 degrees) after 24 hours, remained sluggish through about 48 hours and now I am getting a steady fermentation with bubbles every 10 seconds or so. I plan to give it the full two weeks and assessing, but unless it is still really active I plan to rack after two weeks and let it sit a month in the secondary at 55 or until my keg is empty and then give it some time at 32 in the fridge.

I have never done a diacetyl rest before on this type of beer but am considering it. Looking forward to drinking this some time in march...

Kai said:

Would a stir mechanism (similar to a magnetic stir plate) help. Not enough to actually create a vortex but to keep the yeast from settling completely.

Click to expand...

It's absolute overkill. if there is sugar available, the yeast needs no help in finding it. Even if it seems to have settled and the beer is relatively clear, there's still millions of cells suspended. More than enough to do the job.

I usualy rack mine after a few days to a week. I use plastic for a primary fermentation and glass for secodary. I scrape the trub off the top while in the primary every day till it no longer forms then i rack. I have never had a problem with infection doing this but I don't start cropping the head till the fermentation is very active (usualy in 24 hrs from pitching).

My lagers generally take about 10-14 days to ferment. You can always take a gravity reading to be sure.

As for the diacetyl rest...I've always done/pretended to do one. Just for a day or so I'd bump it up to about 68. I say pretend because I did it out of habit and have never checked that the beer temp actually rose high enough to do anything,

So how are those lagers progressing guys? My krausen has fallen, fermentation is steady but slowing, maybe one bubble every 25 seconds, and it will be two weeks on Saturday in the primary. I plan to rack it and hope we do not have anymore New England January heatwaves so my basement stays below 55.

Still undecided on the diacetyl rest--how long is it supposed to warm up, just a day?

I'm doing a D-rest on my Bock right now. I did my first lager ever last year and this is my second. I let it rest at room temp. (~67oF) for about 3 days then and plan to do the same now. Then, I'll rack to secondary and put it back in my lagering cellar (a.k.a., the garage) for another four weeks or so.

It was a bit high - 1.020. But I noticed it beginning to bubble more rapidly now that it is warming up - about once every 10 secs. or so. Hopefully, I'll shave a few points and get it down close to 1.014. It tasted nice!

Rhoobarb said:

I'm doing a D-rest on my Bock right now. I did my first lager ever last year and this is my second. I let it rest at room temp. (~67oF) for about 3 days then and plan to do the same now. Then, I'll rack to secondary and put it back in my lagering cellar (a.k.a., the garage) for another four weeks or so.

It was a bit high - 1.020. But I noticed it beginning to bubble more rapidly now that it is warming up - about once every 10 secs. or so. Hopefully, I'll shave a few points and get it down close to 1.014. It tasted nice!

Click to expand...

Well I was bottling a batch of Irish red the other night, so I checked gravity on mine. It was 1.024 with a thick foam on the top ans still bubbling ~8sec apart. I plan on letting it go till it slows, or till I hit the three week point (15days at the moment), then rest two days and rack.

-Todd

Mikey said:

It's absolute overkill. if there is sugar available, the yeast needs no help in finding it. Even if it seems to have settled and the beer is relatively clear, there's still millions of cells suspended. More than enough to do the job.

Click to expand...

It's actually worse than this. Stirring up the yeast may cause it to experience stress which will increase the ester production. In some other forum, this was mentioned as a way to enhance the ester production for Hefeweisens. But there are other means to achieve this and a agree that it is somewhat impractical to start stirring in the primary.

Kai

Well, mine is almost three weeks since I pitched, and still bubbling ~5 times a minute. I will probably chekc gravity again tommorow. This sure is a slow ferment.

-Todd

I racked mine over the weekend. It was still slowly fermenting in the primary but there was so much trub I wanted to get it out of there. SG was 1.008 at 55 degrees and my basement has been holding between 55-57 so I skipped the D-rest. I am going to give it about a month of conditioning in the secondary to see if it will develop some more body...

jeffg said:

I racked mine over the weekend. It was still slowly fermenting in the primary but there was so much trub I wanted to get it out of there. SG was 1.008 at 55 degrees and my basement has been holding between 55-57 so I skipped the D-rest. I am going to give it about a month of conditioning in the secondary to see if it will develop some more body...

Click to expand...

I checked gravity last night. It was down to 1.016, (from 1.048). I figure I will give it a few more days and rack it this weekend. Does anyone see any issue with this? I would love to get it down to 1.010 range, but its been in the primary three weeks to the day already.

Once I rack it, I will give it 3-weeks at 55F, 3 weeks at 35F, three days at 65F then bottle.

-Todd

HomerT said:

I checked gravity last night. It was down to 1.016, (from 1.048). I figure I will give it a few more days and rack it this weekend. Does anyone see any issue with this? I would love to get it down to 1.010 range, but its been in the primary three weeks to the day already.

Once I rack it, I will give it 3-weeks at 55F, 3 weeks at 35F, three days at 65F then bottle.

Click to expand...

You should be fine with this. 3 weeks is the longest I would go in the primary due to the trub. Another thing you can do to speed things up is to culture some fresh yeast in a well aerated starter (you can get yeast samples for this from the sediment in the primary) and pitch the cake of this starter.

Eventually it will be done either way. And it will be more estery than you wanted it. That's not a problem unless you planned to enter a competition .

Kai

Once I rack it, I will give it 3-weeks at 55F, 3 weeks at 35F, three days at 65F then bottle.

Click to expand...

I was wondering about this...my first lager (a bock) is in the secondary in the fridge right now. When I go to prime and bottle, should I bring it back up to room temp for a few days to wake up the yeast beforehand?

Take a look here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=5300

After having accumulated some more knowledge in this matter, I advise against carbonating ales at room temperature. They should be carbonated between 50 and 55 degrees in order to suppress the ester production.

For the Maerzen, that I bottled just recently, I did the following:

2 days before bottling I made a 8oz starter with some of the lager yeast that I used. It was at high kraeusen when I wanted to bottle. I boiled the 1.25 cups of DME in water and added it to the bottling bucked I siphoned the beer into the bucked and when there was enough beer in to avoid a temperature shock for the yeast (or even killing it) I added the starter yeast after I brought it back into suspension. I then bottled and let the bottles sit at 50-55F for about a week. If the carbonation is sufficient at this time I will lager them at 32-35F for about 3 weeks.

The fresh yeast should speed up the carbonation and is less prone to autolysis. I only did 8oz of starter since I don't to have a lot of yeast in my bottles.

let's see how well this will work.

I'm also looking forward to having a kegging system so I can lager the beer in a keg. But even then some fresh yeast may be needed for the lagering.

Kai

HomerT said:

I didn't make a starter (see my other thread, where I am ordering a kit) and just pitched the one tube. Predictably, I had a slow start. I held it at 65 until it started bubbling....about 48hrs later. I then moved it to a different spot where it lowered to ~54F in about a day. It has sat in that spot bubbling away ever since. It is now 9-days in and bubbling at a rate of about 1 bubble every 7-seconds.

.

Click to expand...

I also started a new Lager this weekend. Right now I have it fermenting in my primary at room temps (~68F). I was getting about 1 bubble every 15 seconds on Monday and this morning she's bubbling like a banshee. I'm thinking this is probably a good time to put her out in the garage (~40F) or basement closet (~55).

Planning on leaving in primary under cool conditions until at least February 18th. Then we head out on a week of vacation so will rack over to secondary and force myself to forget it even exists until late April or May <G>

Speedie said:

Then we head out on a week of vacation so will rack over to secondary and force myself to forget it even exists until late April or May <G>

Click to expand...

If you can keep it below 40F for this time, it will be the best that can happen to it.

Kai

Kai said:

If you can keep it below 40F for this time, it will be the best that can happen to it.

Kai

Click to expand...

Thanks. Moved it out to my garage over lunch. We've had a pretty mild winter up here (35F today) and my interior garage temps hover around 45 degrees. If things warm then I may have to move to the basement closet (1 exterior wall so temps stay very cool).

HomerT said:

I decided to take a swing at my first lager. I picked up a Brewer's Best Oktoberfest, but instead of using the dry ale yeast with the kit, I pitched WL820 Oktoberfest/Marzen (52~58F).

I didn't make a starter (see my other thread, where I am ordering a kit) and just pitched the one tube. Predictably, I had a slow start. I held it at 65 until it started bubbling....about 48hrs later. I then moved it to a different spot where it lowered to ~54F in about a day. It has sat in that spot bubbling away ever since. It is now 9-days in and bubbling at a rate of about 1 bubble every 7-seconds.

My question is this: When do I transfer to secondary? Having never done a lager and knowing the slow start, do I wait until bubbling slows to less than a minute? Rack after 14-days? Check gravity and rack at <50%OG? I don't want to rack early, but I also don't want to leave it on the trub too long.

Also, since this yeast is a little wamer than most lagers, and content in the mid-50's, do I need to do a Diacetyl rest? When?

-Todd

PS, sorry for all of the questions lately.

Click to expand...

Don't rush your lager! It's always slower but the results are worth it! Lager yeast drops to the bottom so don't transfer to the secondary until you've almost hit your FG. I have a spare bedroom (unheated) I lager almost everything I brew in. I have had wonderful luck with 7 Fruited Wheat beers which took4 - 6 weeks and Ginger beer which took 3 weeks to lager and another month of cold conditioning. It was fantastic (and I'm not usually big on fruited brews). I gave out 25 cases of beer for Xmas and the phones still ringing!

A diacetyl rest is needed if you taste the diacetyl (butterscotch taste) in your wort when you check your SG after about 2 weeks in. Most lager yeasts when fermented properly, don't need a rest and can be racked after primary into your secondary for lagering. If your yeast does need a rest, than it is best to do it when the SG has 2/3 finished to target gravity. Take it up to about 60f for a week to finish and then rack into secondary. Lagers are not ment to be rushed in order to get the lager taste you are looking for.

I racked it friday night. It was at 1.013 gravity. I have it holding at 54 at the moment, because its still has a bit of pressure and is bubbling a small bit. I will give it a week, then its hitting the garage to hold ~37 or so for a few weeks. Then bottle.

-Todd