Lager lag time - Page 2

**Baron von BeeGee** · 12-19-2006, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knipknup

I'm doing the Imperial Pilsner from Extreme Brewing next weekend. Here's my plan:
2 Qt starter 2 days early. Get it fermenting then move it to a cool place ~65F. Then brew, cool to 65F and pitch. I'll move the wort to my garage at that point where it will cool at its leisure and sit at 50F to ferment. Any suggestions?

Yep, I'd at a minimum double the size of your starter to 1g. If your OG is much above 1065-1070 you might want even more, although 1g will probably work. 2qts is a good ale starter.

BrewStef · 12-20-2006, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron von BeeGee

Yep, I'd at a minimum double the size of your starter to 1g. If your OG is much above 1065-1070 you might want even more, although 1g will probably work. 2qts is a good ale starter.

I could use your input as well as I am about to start my first lager this Saturday.

I purchased the Maibock kit from Northern Brewer (1.064 SG), and they only provided one smack pack of Bohemian Lager. Their instructions didn't say anything about a starter, which is astonishing to even a relatively new brewer such as myself. Instructions like this really help confuse new brewers.

I have a 2L starter going (2 cups dme) using Yuri Rage's stirplate at room temp, which is now chilling at 55 in a temp controlled freezer. My plan is to step it once more using wort made with 1 cup DME and 1000ml water, chilling it to match the existing starter, decanting the original starter, then adding the new chilled wort to the original starter. I plan to aerate by shaking the heck out of it and occasionally swirling it, and will leave it in the freezer for two days, then pitching the decanted starter on Saturday to the Maibock once it has chilled to 55.

Does this make sense? Should I adjust the temp to 60 for the starters and final wort, then drop the temp to 55 (ferm temp) after it has been pitched?

I also have an oxygen tank and aeration stone (first time I will be using it). I just read the Lager section of John Palmers book and it said that over oxygenating will lead to thin, perhaps oxidized, beer. Since yeast only needs around 16ppm
02 max, I thought I read you should use the stone for only 5 minutes. I have also heard from others longer or shorter times. Argh...makes me want to go back to just splashing it around. Any ideas here?

Damn, I have to make time to brew and don't want to screw up my first lager.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Cheers.

BrewStef
(Needing to relax with another homebrew)

boo boo · 12-20-2006, 10:23 AM

BrewStef...you are growing yeast, not totally fermenting it. Don't worry about the taste of the starter. Bump your starter temps up to room tempertures and let the yeast grow. When you get your volume of yeast grown, then you can drop the temps down to fermenting temps and decant the spent wort off the starter.

Make sure you have lots of disolved o2 in your wort before pitching the starter into your fermenting temperture wort.

Using pure o2 to aerate your wort? If so then a total of 1 minute should get you the required amount.

Fiery Sword · 12-20-2006, 01:12 PM

Got home from work yesterday to check the Black Lager.......fermenting like a sprinter! i'm holding 52F and getting a bubble every 2 seconds or more. lots of swirly action in the fermenter, too.

for the perspective of a not-too-experienced lager brewer, i'd follow the general system the more experienced people here are saying. mega-starter at room temperature, decant, hit with wort, pitch warm and let it cool in the controlled setting of the fridge. i haven't been over 55 since noticeable fermentation started and it's going like gangbusters. i'm going to check gravity this weekend and go for the diacetyl rest if we are in range. go, lager, go!!!

Kaiser · 12-20-2006, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrewStef

ITheir instructions didn't say anything about a starter, which is astonishing to even a relatively new brewer such as myself. Instructions like this really help confuse new brewers.

The Wyeast activator packs are considered pitchable w/o a starter even for lagers if you pitch warm. This is simpler for most brewers and that's why the instructions didn't call for a starter or yeast propagation.

Kai

boo boo · 12-21-2006, 12:59 AM

I know I'm a pain sometimes but I still have to say pitch an ample amount of starter @ or below fermenting temps into fermenting temps wort. If you start with a warm ferment and then cool you are forcing the yeast to adapt to different brewing conditions than specified for the optimum preformance of the style you want from your yeast. Why bother to cool at all and just brew at the temp you started at?

Do you also pitch ale yeast at 80f and let cool to 68 to ferment?

I'm not saying you won't get good beer from your practices, just not to "style" IMO. I think you lose some of the crispness that a lager provides when doing a warm ferment with lager yeast. I have tried one doing it that way and will stick to my cold ferment from now on. I did make a good beer but it lost something that I attribute to the temperture it was fermented at.

Fiery Sword · 12-21-2006, 01:14 PM

boo boo, the process i've adopted from some of the more experienced folks here definitely involved fermenting the beer within the yeasts 'optimal' fermenting range. The problem is that a lot of brewers don't have the equipment to chill an entire batch of wort down to 55 without a lot of fuss, or without letting the wort sit around overnight without the yeast being pitched. I pitched my starter into the lager at 60=something degrees and immediately put it into my lagering fridge. Before much fermentation started, the fridge had brought the beer down to the 50-55 range. I don't really think this is a style compromise.....the beer is stil doing 98% of it's fermentation within range and I don't expect any off flavors as a result of this practice. Now, if it were really easy for me to chill the wort down into range, I'd do it. But using 50 galons of tap water and 2 bags of ice doesn't seem like an efficient use of resources, especially seeing as I don't have any method to reclaim chiller water.

Turns out with my Black LAger I am lucky that I hooked it up with a blow-off tube in the fridge - last night (second night of hard fermentation) she blew off volcano-style. Since I've only done a handful of lagers I do not know if this is common or not. To be honest, I did not expect it as I thought of these lager yeasts as much more slow-developing than ale yeasts. Stupid (and lucky!) me though, the tube is filled with crud and by blowoff water looks like Boston Harbor circa 1985.

boo boo · 12-21-2006, 10:07 PM

The problem is that a lot of brewers don't have the equipment to chill an entire batch of wort down to 55 without a lot of fuss,

And this I can understand. I am saying that the people who do have the resources to do it and don't.

And I'm not saying they don't make good beer. It's just my opinion that the beer isn't as good as it could be. It might be that i wouldn't be able to taste any difference in a brew brewed by someone else using warmer temps to brew with.
But with identical recipies I noticed a definate loss of "crispness" in my lager that I brewed at a warmer temperture than the one at regular fermenting temps. I will say that even at 65f I didn't get any fruityness from that lager. In fact I have only got a fruity flavor from a brew, and that was using S-23 dry yeast, just the once.

**knipknup** · 12-23-2006, 02:20 PM

So my lager finally started fermenting a week ago. I had to wrap my carboy in a bubble-wrap insulated thing and a couple blankets. Then I plugged in a little heating pad, set it to low and let it simmer. The temp climbed up to 55F and it started bubbling slowly. I left the heating pad on for a few days. Well, it warmed up a bit outside and I came home to a major fermentation with the fermometer at 65F! I turned off the heating pad and the brew mellowed back down to 55F and has been holding since.

So I've heard a lot about the rest thing (don't know the technical term) where you heat up the primary after the fermentation is basically completed to allow the yeast to consume the bad stuff and then rack and lager. Is this basically heating to around 65F for a couple days?

Any opinions one what nasties I may be facing based on all the temp jumps my primary has experienced?

beerFacedotkom · 11-26-2011, 04:03 PM

I brewed 10 gal of a Singha malt liquor clone last night. We started brewing at around 1 pm and started two starters at that time. We pitched at room temp (~70F) at around 10 pm. The starters had just started to krausen but were not super active. We aerated the wort by shaking the fermenter buckets, could've done better with the spinner (used with a hand drill), but didn't end up using it. It's been in the fridge (with temp controller set to ~50F) for 12 hours now and the little hat in the air lock is all the way down (no C02 pressure in the bucket).

Should I leave it or bring it up to 65 to get it going, then take back to 45 - 50? Will that cause diecetyls, etc.?

Thanks,

JJ