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Old 01-31-2011, 12:56 AM   #51
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Awesome, thanks! I'll give it a try tonight and let you know in about a month! So am I correct in assuming that the main purpose for including this invert sugar is to up the abv? what about the cain sugar? what is that in there for?
I've added invert sugar (glucose & fructose) to the wort. And I've used plain cane sugar (sucrose) to prime bottles for carbonation without any cidery taste. But I've never used both in the wort. Sorry, but I have no clue why your recipe calls for both.
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Old 01-31-2011, 10:09 PM   #52
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I'd highly recommend making your own. I use cheap C&H sugar from the grocery store. I bet 1 cup sugar, 1.5 cups water and a pinch of citric acid would be more than 8oz. Just boil it till it gets ever so slightly thick but not quite golden. It continues to darken after you take it off the fire so if you want to make perfect golden syrup you might have to practice a few times.
any idea how long it usually needs to boil before beginning to change color? ballpark figure?
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Old 04-24-2011, 07:01 PM   #53
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The darkening goes way faster in an alkaline solution. Just tried making some dark sugar syrup from beet table sugar and I used about 200ml of 1% NaOH solution to promote Maillard reactions, added in batches. The sugar syrup is pitch black and I've never gone over 130°C.

As foodgrade NaOH is rather hard to find, you could try to convert some NaHCO3 (baking soda) into Na2Co3 by heating at 200°C in the oven and than using a that dissolved in water to accelerate the darkening. (just add the solution a little at a time when the sugar passes 105-110°C

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Old 09-01-2013, 02:42 PM   #54
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Hi,

old discussion, I know, but someone could be interested in how the real story is, a part of it at least

I did extesive reaseaches for understanding what ligth candy sugar is and what are the differencies with inverted sugar (if there are any differencies, I suspect it is a blend of inverted and table sugar). I met some goals about the process and find many hints about the process for producing the dark one.

Only problem: it is in Italian... http://www.movimentobirra.it/public/...BI_01-2013.pdf (pag. 9)

Briefly: some of you said right things. But you missed one point, I think: you cannot have ANY Maillard reaction with sucrose. That's why you have to invert table sugar to have the Maillard reaction, it works with fructose and glucose, not with sucrose. You can only caramellize sucrose. AFTER you inverted the sugar, you increase pH adding some amino acids to help the Maillard reaction, the easy way is adding ammonium bicarbonate. Under 140 C you will mainly have Maillard reaction and less Caramelization (it works above 100 C). You can play with time and temperatures to develop a good profile for you dark sugar. In my article you can find some indications about level of pH where the two reactions could be achieved (2.5-3 and 4-4.5)

Regarding the possibiliy to invert sugar during the boiling, what Denny says is not correct. Look at this graph:

http://bressanini-lescienze.blogauto...ero-invertito/

This is the time, temperature and pH needed to invert HALF of the sugar. So putting your sugar at the start of the boil you will need 2-3 hours to invert HALF of it (and it will be darker, not optimal for a Tripel)

I do not know if there are some differencies in the flavour profile between plain and inverted (ligth) sugar: some brewers use the plain, others use the inverted, and other use the candy ligth (in Europe, for breweries, there are both the inverted and the candy). A friend of mine, brewer and great taster, said that with blind tasting candy ligth resulted better than the inverted. Anyway, in homebrewing, I use sugar inverted on my own: it is not a great effort, add citric acid, add sugar, warm up a pot, wait until it gets cold, add ammonium bicarbonate (or baking soda, it works the same for ligth candy) and that's it

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Old 09-02-2013, 01:37 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by SRicci View Post
Hi,

old discussion, I know, but someone could be interested in how the real story is, a part of it at least

I did extesive reaseaches for understanding what ligth candy sugar is and what are the differencies with inverted sugar (if there are any differencies, I suspect it is a blend of inverted and table sugar). I met some goals about the process and find many hints about the process for producing the dark one.

Only problem: it is in Italian... http://www.movimentobirra.it/public/...BI_01-2013.pdf (pag. 9)

Briefly: some of you said right things. But you missed one point, I think: you cannot have ANY Maillard reaction with sucrose. That's why you have to invert table sugar to have the Maillard reaction, it works with fructose and glucose, not with sucrose. You can only caramellize sucrose. AFTER you inverted the sugar, you increase pH adding some amino acids to help the Maillard reaction, the easy way is adding ammonium bicarbonate. Under 140 C you will mainly have Maillard reaction and less Caramelization (it works above 100 C). You can play with time and temperatures to develop a good profile for you dark sugar. In my article you can find some indications about level of pH where the two reactions could be achieved (2.5-3 and 4-4.5)

Regarding the possibiliy to invert sugar during the boiling, what Denny says is not correct. Look at this graph:

http://bressanini-lescienze.blogauto...ero-invertito/

This is the time, temperature and pH needed to invert HALF of the sugar. So putting your sugar at the start of the boil you will need 2-3 hours to invert HALF of it (and it will be darker, not optimal for a Tripel)

I do not know if there are some differencies in the flavour profile between plain and inverted (ligth) sugar: some brewers use the plain, others use the inverted, and other use the candy ligth (in Europe, for breweries, there are both the inverted and the candy). A friend of mine, brewer and great taster, said that with blind tasting candy ligth resulted better than the inverted. Anyway, in homebrewing, I use sugar inverted on my own: it is not a great effort, add citric acid, add sugar, warm up a pot, wait until it gets cold, add ammonium bicarbonate (or baking soda, it works the same for ligth candy) and that's it
So the real question: what is your dark candi sugar recipe?
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Old 09-02-2013, 09:46 AM   #56
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So the real question: what is your dark candi sugar recipe?
something like this:

1 kg table sugar
about 0.5 lt of water
very little citric acid (say the end of a little spoon)

you should have pH 3-3.5, if you want to check (lower is not a big problem)

warm the syrup to 90-100 C
cover the pot and wait at least 1 hour

then add a very very little quantity of ammonium bicarbonate (other substaces could work, this one is cheap and easy to find for me)

pH should be 4-4.5 (higher should not be a problem, 4.5 is the value of the commercial one, the higher the value the faster the Maillard reaction, the less you can control it)

then make steps of temperature under 140 C until you reach the desired colour and flavour, for example 90-110-130 C each for 10' (you have to tune this)
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Old 09-02-2013, 11:40 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by SRicci View Post

something like this:

1 kg table sugar
about 0.5 lt of water
very little citric acid (say the end of a little spoon)

you should have pH 3-3.5, if you want to check (lower is not a big problem)

warm the syrup to 90-100 C
cover the pot and wait at least 1 hour

then add a very very little quantity of ammonium bicarbonate (other substaces could work, this one is cheap and easy to find for me)

pH should be 4-4.5 (higher should not be a problem, 4.5 is the value of the commercial one, the higher the value the faster the Maillard reaction, the less you can control it)

then make steps of temperature under 140 C until you reach the desired colour and flavour, for example 90-110-130 C each for 10' (you have to tune this)
I am not finding the ammonium bicarb. What other agents work? DAP? Is it for the nitrogen you use it?
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Old 09-03-2013, 10:57 AM   #58
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I am not finding the ammonium bicarb. What other agents work? DAP? Is it for the nitrogen you use it?
ammonium bicarb is used in cooking (leavening cookies). should not be impossible to find it

DAP should work too. I don't know about the ability of DAP to increase pH: if it is too low after having added DAP, you can help the Maillard reaction using very very very little baking soda

here other insights about the process and temp: http://brewery.org/brewery/library/Maillard_CS0497.html
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