Increasing flavor stability?

One of my pet projects over the last year has been trying to make a pale ale that I can actually enjoy drinking. I think it's nice to have an easy to drink, relatively clean beer, but I'm very often unimpressed by commercial pale ales because the just lack flavor. So many of them are watery, with just a little malt character and almost no hops to speak of.

That said, I've managed to hone in on a recipe that I mostly enjoyed at first, but it didn't last long at all. The main difference this time vs the last time I made it was the removal of a darker crystal malt that was causing the color to be close to 14 SRM, and changing around my hop additions to try to make them last longer.

This beer has been on tap for probably a month and a half. Considering a 4 week fermentation, that means this beer is about 2.5-3 months old. The hop aroma has dropped off almost entirely, and the hop flavor has drastically been reduced to only bitterness. The malt character seems thin now, with only a hint of sweetness, and a bit of biscuit, and the bitterness in the back of the mouth seems somehow metallic.

The last time I made it, I used an ounce of whole leaf Cascade as a mash hop addition, and half an ounce as a first wort hop addition. I added .3 oz of Summit at 60, and then .5 oz Cascade at 5 minutes. Finally, I dry hopped with an ounce of Cascade for a week before kegging. I thought that doing FWH additions were supposed to increase the flavor stability of the hops. What else can be done to retain the hoppy flavors? And will having a more complex malt profile keep the drinkability of the beer up even after the hops have faded some? Is there any hope for pale ales/IPAs or is there no way to keep them bold and flavorful as they age some?

I think if you posted your recipe we could help more with the malt end of things, but you are really using a very small amount of hops for flavoring purposes. an ounce of cascades at first wort and at 5 would be more appropriate. also, I usually dry hop with two ounces.

edit: just noticed something in your post. what do you mean more complex malt profile? If you mean using a large variety of different malts, don't. pinpoint exactly the flavor you want from the malt, and use as few grains as possible to get there. Usually I only use two or three grains total in my beers (base malt, and then maybe one or two specialty malts) unless I've got something particular in mind (like smokey or a specific cereal grain character like rye). Also, maybe we should look at your process a little. what's your average efficiency? I aged a pale ale for five months that was great, and plan on aging my IPA for six.

Thanks for the reply. The recipe was:

9.5 lbs Pale 2-row
.5 lbs 60L
5 oz Carafoam
4 oz Biscuit

1oz Cascade (mash)
.5 oz Cascade (FWH)
.3 oz Summit (60)
.5 oz Cascade (5)
1oz Cascade (Dry Hop)

Yeast - WLP001 Cal Ale

Mashed at 155 for 60 minutes. I usually get about 80% efficiency, ended up with an OG of 1.059, FG of 1.009.

My main concern is with some more stability in the hop flavor. I feel like compared to the last time I made it the hops just didn't last at all. The previous recipe had the same amounts, but with the FWH addition at 15 minutes, and no mash hop. It also used 5 oz of Caraaroma instead of Carafoam. That's why I'm wondering about the malt profile, I'm thinking the hop fading might just be unavoidable, but now it doesn't have enough malt flavor to keep it interesting.

Maybe a couple degrees more in the mash will give you a more malty profile that you are looking for!!

I'm really thinking beyond the scope of this recipe though. Are there any tricks that you all have found to keep the flavor fresh for as long as possible?

stageseven said:

I'm really thinking beyond the scope of this recipe though. Are there any tricks that you all have found to keep the flavor fresh for as long as possible?

Click to expand...

Yes! Drink it young!

Really, with a limited amount of flavor/aroma hops and dryhops, that "fresh" hops taste won't last long. Even with more late hops, it won't last that long. But with only 1 ounce of dry hops and .5 ounce of late hops, it's going to only be at its peak a few weeks at best after brewing.

you could drink it young, but you're also just holding back a lot on many of the ingredients for what you're looking for. aside from super high alpha hops, an ounce is about the minimum for any hop additions

bump up some of the biscuit malt and crystal malt too

I dont know much about fwh hops but wow, .3 at 60 and .5 to finish? I use more than that for my 15-20 ibu lagers. My last pale ale was 1oz at 60 of 11% AA nugget and 1 oz 6% AA goldings at 10 minutes and it was well received by everyone and one of my favorite pale ale so far. I brewed that particular beer june of 2010 and i didnt finish the last of it until january of this year and it was fantastic until the last drop.

I'll try increasing the late additions for sure. I may have to do away with the 60 minute entirely or change it to a different variety as this recipe is already 35 IBUs, which is right around where it needs to be for good balance. My last packet of Summit was 18.5%, so I think I decreased my later additions a bit keep the IBUs the same. I didn't realize that having less quantity on an addition would have so much impact on duration of flavor and not just intensity.

Are there any other tricks for hoppy beers? I've read that many of the volatiles can be stripped out by a vigorous fermentation. Is there any merit to adjusting pitching rate or fermentation temperature with the goal of keeping the fermentation more subdued?

stageseven said:

I'll try increasing the late additions for sure. I may have to do away with the 60 minute entirely or change it to a different variety as this recipe is already 35 IBUs, which is right around where it needs to be for good balance. My last packet of Summit was 18.5%, so I think I decreased my later additions a bit keep the IBUs the same. I didn't realize that having less quantity on an addition would have so much impact on duration of flavor and not just intensity.

Are there any other tricks for hoppy beers? I've read that many of the volatiles can be stripped out by a vigorous fermentation. Is there any merit to adjusting pitching rate or fermentation temperature with the goal of keeping the fermentation more subdued?

Click to expand...

Not in my experience. A vigorous fermentation is fine, as long as the temperature doesn't exceed about 70 degrees. Pitching the proper amount of yeast (enough yeast!), and keeping at the correct temperature is usually the number one thing to do to have a great tasting beer, regardless of style.

For an APA, the key is balance. You want a firm bitterness, but not overwhelming. For an APA with an OG of 1.050, I'd suggest getting 30-35 IBUs from the 60 minute hops/FWH and then adding an ounce of hops at 15 minutes, one at 5 minutes, and one at flame out. If you're afraid it'll be too much, you can do an ounce at 15 minutes (the flavor hops) and then .5 ounce at 5 minutes and flame out. You can also dryhop after fermentation is over if you'd like more hops flavor and aroma.

I noticed the same problem when I first started formulating recipes. I started doing 3 gallon batches to experiment a bit and found that increasing the hops has a big impact on stability. Keep the 60 minute with whatever you are comfortable with for IBUs, but crank up additions from 15 minutes to flameout. It will taste a bit out of balance for the first two weeks, but when you hit that third week it all melds. The flavor will fade slightly over the course of a few months, but I'm still happy with the flavor of my pales after two months.

You might also try working with different varieties of hops. If you like dank/pungent hops, using Columbus for flavor and dryhop can really give you a strong hop character that lasts. I also loved the Simcoe pale that I did recently. Had a tropical fruit flavor that held strong through the last bottle.

So I'd suggest some smaller batches so you can experiment with increased quanities and varieties of hops. As for grain, I really like what Vienna has to offer...

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm making quite a few changes to the hopping schedule, so I'll see how this goes. I'll definitely keep the late additions up in the future.

have you tried dry hopping in the keg?

maybe a 15-20min flavor hop addition as well

tagz makes a good point about variety of hops. Cascades are relatively unstable compared to other newer varieties so it's possible that the flavor/aromatic oils from Cascades are just as easily lost as it's bittering potential (alpha-acids) with storage.

I would never primary an ipa or pale ale for a month. When it's done, crash cool and keg/bottle it. With good pitching rates should be 2 weeks tops.


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Could this flavor stability problem be a water issue? What is your water profile like? I have medium soft water with moderatly low alkalinity. I usually brew pale ales with no mash pH adjustment and my sulfate/chloride ratio balances on the lower end of bitter. My pale beers taste good young but seem to be very good after 3 or 4 months. Ones that I have adjusted to balance taste better young but fade over a few months.

I spent a lot of time and tried many techniques trying to get hop flavor in my hoppy beers to hold longer. I have ended up just giving myself 90 days max to consume hoppy beers I brew. I am now working on trying to get a better hop/malt balance on my hoppy beers. I have no real answers there yet but the more I work on the question the more I believe that less is better. I pretty much have quit using anything for head retention and body on my hoppy beers, usally an APA type, and now use a single base. I am leaning more to Munich but also trying Victory and Vienna but expense is an issue with the later two. Then maybe one additional specialty...usally a crystal/carmel/cara. I*f you come up with the4 magic bullet make sure you post it.

Serve it through a randall.

I used to be terrified of dry hopping for too long, (people told me it would get grassy). Recently though, I got lazy and just dropped a tea ball with 1 oz cascades into my Cascade Blonde keg when I kegged it. That beer lasted close to a month and a half, and the dry hop flavor stayed strong throughout, with no hint of grassiness. I think keeping it cold and in the fridge helps avoid the grass problem.

So my suggestion is put an oz or two of hops in the keg, and leave em in there.