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Old 12-15-2011, 12:42 AM   #51
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I always assumed that steeping for 20 and boiling for 20 minute would taste the same too and always chilled immediately as a result of this thinking. Then I had the opportunity to spend a brewday with the brewer at a local brewery I like and saw that they steeped their flameout additions for a while, which prompted me to try it out for myself. I'd say the 2 techniques produce very different results.

I couldn't tell you anything about the science... I'm more of a tastebuds-oriented brewer.

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Old 12-15-2011, 01:14 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by markg388 View Post
I always assumed that steeping for 20 and boiling for 20 minute would taste the same too and always chilled immediately as a result of this thinking. Then I had the opportunity to spend a brewday with the brewer at a local brewery I like and saw that they steeped their flameout additions for a while, which prompted me to try it out for myself. I'd say the 2 techniques produce very different results.

I couldn't tell you anything about the science... I'm more of a tastebuds-oriented brewer.
I think it more likely that a hop stand is going to produce results more like a 5min addition, since the temp isn't as high and the rolling boil isn't moving things around.
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Old 12-15-2011, 01:30 AM   #53
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I think it more likely that a hop stand is going to produce results more like a 5min addition, since the temp isn't as high and the rolling boil isn't moving things around.
Do you mean hop steep? Or am I missing something....
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Old 12-15-2011, 01:54 AM   #54
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I've heard it called a hop stand, when you let the wort "stand" for some time after turning off/down the heat so its not boiling. Its steeping though. i've done it before, just because I thought it would bring out the flavor/aroma. FO hops always seemed to me to be a little bit underutilized in theory. I don't usualy spare the hops though so its hard to really tell and I'm not one to do a side by side experiment.

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Old 12-15-2011, 02:56 PM   #55
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Very interesting. So for my next batch I'll do an oz FWH, bittering hops and then hold off and at FO I'll toss in another oz or two for a half hour.

Yes, I love hops.

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Old 12-21-2011, 10:57 PM   #56
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From a chemical processing perspective, there is an old listed property of some materials; "volatile with steam," in reference books. Direct steam injection is a very old method for getting heavier organics that are not water-soluble or necessarily all that volatile to leave the pot. Whisky is made in this manner for the very reason that the flavors that make it whisky are volatile with steam; no other distillation method will make whisky, as the organic molecules giving the flavor will not be carried over. So, it is this biochemist's opinion, that the more steam you are removing from a kettle, the more flavoring chemicals (good or bad) you are removing. Soaking the hops under boiling temps should increase solubility without losing too much in the way of organics that are only volatile with steam, leading to more hop flavor than either not soaking hot or boiling for any period. The higher temperatures also would, of course, lend themselves to chemical changes that could alter flavor profile, so I wouldn't say performing the "hop steep" would necessarily give you a better tasting beer every time! Too many factors to know.

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Old 12-22-2011, 12:13 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickFinsta
From a chemical processing perspective, there is an old listed property of some materials; "volatile with steam," in reference books. Direct steam injection is a very old method for getting heavier organics that are not water-soluble or necessarily all that volatile to leave the pot. Whisky is made in this manner for the very reason that the flavors that make it whisky are volatile with steam; no other distillation method will make whisky, as the organic molecules giving the flavor will not be carried over. So, it is this biochemist's opinion, that the more steam you are removing from a kettle, the more flavoring chemicals (good or bad) you are removing. Soaking the hops under boiling temps should increase solubility without losing too much in the way of organics that are only volatile with steam, leading to more hop flavor than either not soaking hot or boiling for any period. The higher temperatures also would, of course, lend themselves to chemical changes that could alter flavor profile, so I wouldn't say performing the "hop steep" would necessarily give you a better tasting beer every time! Too many factors to know.
Best theory I've read so far! Thanks for your input!
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Old 12-22-2011, 01:51 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by RickFinsta View Post
From a chemical processing perspective, there is an old listed property of some materials; "volatile with steam," in reference books. Direct steam injection is a very old method for getting heavier organics that are not water-soluble or necessarily all that volatile to leave the pot. Whisky is made in this manner for the very reason that the flavors that make it whisky are volatile with steam; no other distillation method will make whisky, as the organic molecules giving the flavor will not be carried over. So, it is this biochemist's opinion, that the more steam you are removing from a kettle, the more flavoring chemicals (good or bad) you are removing. Soaking the hops under boiling temps should increase solubility without losing too much in the way of organics that are only volatile with steam, leading to more hop flavor than either not soaking hot or boiling for any period. The higher temperatures also would, of course, lend themselves to chemical changes that could alter flavor profile, so I wouldn't say performing the "hop steep" would necessarily give you a better tasting beer every time! Too many factors to know.
What? A little confusing.

If I read it right, you are saying that high temperatures are best for extracting hop oils (flavor and aroma), and not boiling/steaming reduces the loss of those oils, retaining more of the oils in the finished product.

The next question that comes up is ... Are you also adding bittering compounds to the wort and increasing the IBUs during this time? It is my understanding that bittering compounds need to be isomerized (evaporated and condensed) to become soluble in the wort, so you will not get any additional bittering when the pot is not actually boiling.

So; my 15 to 30 minute hop steep is not just a waste of time.
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Old 12-22-2011, 06:50 PM   #59
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What? A little confusing.

If I read it right, you are saying that high temperatures are best for extracting hop oils (flavor and aroma), and not boiling/steaming reduces the loss of those oils, retaining more of the oils in the finished product.

The next question that comes up is ... Are you also adding bittering compounds to the wort and increasing the IBUs during this time? It is my understanding that bittering compounds need to be isomerized (evaporated and condensed) to become soluble in the wort, so you will not get any additional bittering when the pot is not actually boiling.

So; my 15 to 30 minute hop steep is not just a waste of time.
I don't think RickFinsta is claiming that your 15 to 30 min steep is a waste of time but the opposite, that it increases hop flavor. I didn't see where he discussed isomerization of bittering compounds at all, and rightfully so because because it probably doesn't take place in a significant way if at all in a hot steep.

Additionally it seems that RickFinsta hits on an interesting point in that steeping at high temperatures lend themselves to chemical changes that "could alter flavor profile". He doesn't claim to either empirically or subjectively know what those chemical changes will be every time and/or for any given hop variety ("too many factors to know") so therefore the statement, "so I wouldn't say performing the 'hop steep' would necessarily give you a better tasting beer every time!" makes sense.

I think we can almost assume though that since we boil hops in the normal course of making beer (i.e add hops to hot liquids for the intent of releasing bittering and flavoring compounds) that steeping hops in hot liquid, especially if the variety is known to us to be pleasant to our senses will yield a pleasant result and/or will increase the aromatics that we are seeking to add to the flavor of the beer we are making. The caveat: it should be appropriate to style if trying to make to style. If not attempting to brew 'to style' then do whatever you want.

The fact that high temperatures (therefore temperature variations in general) alter flavors by creating chemical changes means to me that a brewer will get different flavor profiles by boiling for long periods, by hot steeping, and by dry hopping and any other temperature step in between. Lets just not assume that these methods will always give us what we desire flavor wise in the beer that we are attempting to create.

I intend to start hot steeping my flame out additions for certain styles of beer I make as I have not been doing this. I am quite excited about it actually and can't wait to taste the results. Definitely will hot steep for my next APA. May try it in a restrained way for ESB's and American Ambers. Probably not incredibly appropriate in the other styles I normally brew but I am open to trying new things too. My .02 FWIW.
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Old 12-22-2011, 07:09 PM   #60
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