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Old 11-08-2011, 06:48 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by shortyjacobs View Post
I could be wrong, but I think the DMS "danger zone" is between 140 and 180. 140 is the temp you want to get below ASAP, IIRC.
I think you are correct, still being produced but not getting out of wort between 140-180. I've been using a CFC for a long time because of this, but forgot the exact #'s.

I like the hop tea Idea too. that would be an easy one to do a side by side experiment with.
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Old 11-08-2011, 07:47 PM   #42
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Old 11-08-2011, 08:31 PM   #43
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Old 11-09-2011, 06:05 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Mpavlik22 View Post
I'm not 100% sure and he may have another reason, but i believe adding the hops below 180F will stop isomerization and not extract additional bitterness.

When adding hops at flame out, and letting steep for 30 mins before cooling can almost be considered close to a regular 30 min hop addition adding flavor but also adding significant bitterness.

I assume he chills to stop from adding bitterness, but to continue to add aroma and flavoring from the hops.
Mpalvik - that's right, but you've thought it out and articulated it better than I could have. Thanks
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Old 12-12-2011, 11:34 PM   #45
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Alright, so now that they're carbed up and conditioned the side by side test was done today. I also had my friend taste them without knowing which one was which.

The recipe, it's pretty out of season.
10# pilsner
8# gambrinus "esb" malt
1# carafoam
.5# honey malt
mash @ 154
90 minute boil

.8oz magnum @12.5%

When it was chilling time i split the beer into 2 pots and added .7oz saphir to each, immediately chilling the first 5 gallons and letting the other 5 sit there while the first batch chilled. Each bucket received a re-hydrated pack of S-05. The OG was 1.042 and I didn't measure the FG.

The verdict? Steeping the hops for 20 or so minutes before chilling will get more aroma and flavor out of them. All the hops were pellets.

The one that was chilled instantly doesn't really have any hop qualities at all, maybe a tiny "green" or "plant" flavor if you search for it. Pretty much a waste of hops, it mostly has a mild candy-like sweetness with a bit of malt flavor, but overall it's quite a low-flavor chuggable beer. I'd probably like it more if it was hot outside.

The one that was steeped has a modest, bright hop essence that mixes nicely with that sweetness. You can actually smell a bit of hops in it and taste them too. It's still a real mild, chuggable low-flavor beer, but there's more going on than in the other one. I think the steeped beer has a teensy bit more bitterness, but I couldn't tell until i re-tasted them to see what the difference was.

So there we go! I'm excited to find out how much more intense my hoppy brews are going to start getting pretty soon here.

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Old 12-13-2011, 01:27 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg388 View Post
Alright, so now that they're carbed up and conditioned the side by side test was done today. I also had my friend taste them without knowing which one was which.

The recipe, it's pretty out of season.
10# pilsner
8# gambrinus "esb" malt
1# carafoam
.5# honey malt
mash @ 154
90 minute boil

.8oz magnum @12.5%

When it was chilling time i split the beer into 2 pots and added .7oz saphir to each, immediately chilling the first 5 gallons and letting the other 5 sit there while the first batch chilled. Each bucket received a re-hydrated pack of S-05. The OG was 1.042 and I didn't measure the FG.

The verdict? Steeping the hops for 20 or so minutes before chilling will get more aroma and flavor out of them. All the hops were pellets.

The one that was chilled instantly doesn't really have any hop qualities at all, maybe a tiny "green" or "plant" flavor if you search for it. Pretty much a waste of hops, it mostly has a mild candy-like sweetness with a bit of malt flavor, but overall it's quite a low-flavor chuggable beer. I'd probably like it more if it was hot outside.

The one that was steeped has a modest, bright hop essence that mixes nicely with that sweetness. You can actually smell a bit of hops in it and taste them too. It's still a real mild, chuggable low-flavor beer, but there's more going on than in the other one. I think the steeped beer has a teensy bit more bitterness, but I couldn't tell until i re-tasted them to see what the difference was.

So there we go! I'm excited to find out how much more intense my hoppy brews are going to start getting pretty soon here.
Thanks for doing the experiment! Totally going to follow your lead on my next batch.
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Old 12-13-2011, 06:26 PM   #47
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markg388,
Great info. Thanks for taking the time and doing this. I guess I am glad I don't have a chiller yet My last batch (IPA), I added hops at 8min and flame out, then chilled slowly in the sink. Should be the same results as a longer steep.

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Old 12-14-2011, 07:09 PM   #48
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Pardon my potential ignorance, but wouldn't you get the same type of flavor from doing a 20 minute addition during the boil and then chilling rapidly? I mean really the only difference between letting it steep for 20 minutes and letting it boil for 20 minutes is that more water is escaping as steam during the boil, and a small temp difference. It looks to me like the hop oils boil off at a much lower temperature than water anyways, so the small temp difference should not matter too much.

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Old 12-14-2011, 08:38 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiNuke
Pardon my potential ignorance, but wouldn't you get the same type of flavor from doing a 20 minute addition during the boil and then chilling rapidly? I mean really the only difference between letting it steep for 20 minutes and letting it boil for 20 minutes is that more water is escaping as steam during the boil, and a small temp difference. It looks to me like the hop oils boil off at a much lower temperature than water anyways, so the small temp difference should not matter too much.
Steam vapor bubbling up through the volatile oils drastically increase surface area and aid in stripping aromatic compounds out of the wort, this chemical engineer guesses.
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Old 12-14-2011, 08:51 PM   #50
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I don't think the volatile components are necessarily all that volatile. I get good aroma from a 5min addition. Yes the steam is coming off more vigorously and you are dealing with a 20F difference in temp, but it isn't as drastic as all that. Even a straight bittering addition at 60min still gives a little flavor and aroma.

I've always felt that a FO addition was a little wasteful, so the hop stand makes sense to me. I don't know that it is going to be significantly different than something you'd get from a 15 and 5min combo though. Thats my usual protocol. I rarely dry hop and still get some very nice aroma.

As for whether a hop stand causes issues with DMS, sounds like it doesn't. If you've boiled adequately (60min for 2-row, 90min for pils) you shoud't have many precursors left.

FWH, FO w/ hop stand, 60-15-5, dry hop, its all good.

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