Spike Brewing 12.5 Conical Fermenter Giveaway!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > General Techniques > How to get the best hop aroma from flameout additions?

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01-05-2011, 01:02 AM   #11
tagz
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,324
Liked 109 Times on 86 Posts
Likes Given: 14

Default

If you are allowing a 40-60 minute cool down, how does this affect your cold break?

__________________
tagz is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-07-2011, 07:55 AM   #12
duffman2
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 608
Liked 8 Times on 5 Posts
Likes Given: 3

Default

Here's my take on all of the hop additions. Hop qualities (bittering, flavoring, and aroma) come from the isomerization of the oil molecules that are extracted from the hops. Isomerization is the reconfiguration of the molecular structure of these compounds that happens as a result of being exposed to the boiling wort. So, you have the same hoppy molecules that retain their chemical elements but the longer they stay in the hot liquid the more that they change shape - and each shape gives it a different chemical contribution.

So, if a cascade hop is thrown into the boil at 60 minutes, it's molecular structure will be bent into a chain that has bittering properties after boiling for somewhere around 60 minutes. And a cascade hop thrown in at flameout barely changes it's structure and therefore it's molecular structure will be one that gives more of it's natural aromatic properties (this is just like dry hopping because when you dry hop the beer is not hot enough to change the chemical properties and all you get is the wonderful hoppy aroma. Dry hopping is just an extension of flameout hop additions that you can do later for an extended amount of time).

Now in regard to the question of how long the aroma hops need to be exposed, I think it's really just a matter of getting all of their oils extracted from the hops. And if you do get all of the oils (in 5,10 minutes, or whatever it takes) you can chill immediately. The only thing that matters is if you leave your wort in a no-chill cube and the temp remains close to boiling for a long time. Then some of your aroma hops isomerize and turn into bittering hops.

But all in all, I believe that the oils come out fairly quickly from the hops and this is why people can put them in the kettle and then take them out right away. I don't think you get a whole lot more oil extraction from 45 minutes than you really would after only 5 minutes. Just my $.78

__________________
duffman2 is offline
4
People Like This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-26-2011, 11:31 PM   #13
laxsoccerguy
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: VT
Posts: 60
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

When you let the hops "steep" in the wort atflame out, does everybody put the lid on? or leave it off?

__________________
laxsoccerguy is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-27-2011, 12:22 AM   #14
markg388
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: seattle
Posts: 380
Liked 14 Times on 10 Posts

Default

Screw brew science, a lot of "rules" seem to change every few years anyway. Brew the same recipe twice, but chill one immediately and let the other rest for a while and tell us what the REAL authorities (tastebuds) have to say about it. I'm gunna do it in a few weeks when I start running low on hoppy beer, anyone else with me?

__________________
markg388 is offline
justkev52 Likes This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-13-2011, 02:28 AM   #15
Yorg
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 168
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

So what were the results - I really think this an important bit of homebrewing info?

__________________
Yorg is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-13-2011, 03:25 AM   #16
strat_thru_marshall
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 1,679
Liked 26 Times on 23 Posts
Likes Given: 32

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tagz View Post
If you are allowing a 40-60 minute cool down, how does this affect your cold break?
You'd be amazed how long 10 gallons of hot wort stays above 180F after you turn the heat off, but dont turn the chiller on.

I whirlpool for 20-30 mins hot and dont lose more than a couple degrees. When the chiller kicks on, it drops rapidly and I still get good cold break.
__________________
strat_thru_marshall is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-13-2011, 07:18 AM   #17
Yorg
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 168
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

sorry, I was more interested in the effect of non-boiling high temp lengthy steeping on hop aroma.

__________________
Yorg is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-13-2011, 08:54 AM   #18
StMarcos
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sebastopol, CA
Posts: 947
Liked 29 Times on 24 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by duffman2 View Post
Here's my take on all of the hop additions. Hop qualities (bittering, flavoring, and aroma) come from the isomerization of the oil molecules that are extracted from the hops. Isomerization is the reconfiguration of the molecular structure of these compounds that happens as a result of being exposed to the boiling wort. So, you have the same hoppy molecules that retain their chemical elements but the longer they stay in the hot liquid the more that they change shape - and each shape gives it a different chemical contribution.

So, if a cascade hop is thrown into the boil at 60 minutes, it's molecular structure will be bent into a chain that has bittering properties after boiling for somewhere around 60 minutes. And a cascade hop thrown in at flameout barely changes it's structure and therefore it's molecular structure will be one that gives more of it's natural aromatic properties (this is just like dry hopping because when you dry hop the beer is not hot enough to change the chemical properties and all you get is the wonderful hoppy aroma. Dry hopping is just an extension of flameout hop additions that you can do later for an extended amount of time).

Now in regard to the question of how long the aroma hops need to be exposed, I think it's really just a matter of getting all of their oils extracted from the hops. And if you do get all of the oils (in 5,10 minutes, or whatever it takes) you can chill immediately. The only thing that matters is if you leave your wort in a no-chill cube and the temp remains close to boiling for a long time. Then some of your aroma hops isomerize and turn into bittering hops.

But all in all, I believe that the oils come out fairly quickly from the hops and this is why people can put them in the kettle and then take them out right away. I don't think you get a whole lot more oil extraction from 45 minutes than you really would after only 5 minutes. Just my $.78
This doesn't make sense from my perspective. True, bittering requires the higher temps for isomerization, and this can happen at 90 and 110C (!). But the aromatic qualities of hops are in many ways disconnected from the bittering. Once you are boiling, in either Death Valley or Denver, you're pulling a lot of the aromatics out of the wort.

Say your inline chilling takes 10min. A 0min addition is going to add (keep?) WAY more than half a 10min addition, even though the 0min addition lasted half (10min vs 20min) the time. The 10min addition had double the wort contact time, but half that time was driving a distillation off to the atmosphere, whereas the 0min addition spent no time doing this. Evaporative loss of aromatics ought to be WAY slower than that by active boiling.
__________________
StMarcos is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-13-2011, 08:56 AM   #19
Yorg
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 168
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by markg388 View Post
Screw brew science, a lot of "rules" seem to change every few years anyway. Brew the same recipe twice, but chill one immediately and let the other rest for a while and tell us what the REAL authorities (tastebuds) have to say about it. I'm gunna do it in a few weeks when I start running low on hoppy beer, anyone else with me?
Yeah, but I'm interested if anyone has done the experiment.
__________________
Yorg is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-13-2011, 02:29 PM   #20
markg388
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: seattle
Posts: 380
Liked 14 Times on 10 Posts

Default

i forgot all about this thread! I just happen to be running low on hoppy beer too...

i'm going on vacation for 3 weeks... and when i get back i'm ordering a bunch of the 2011 hop harvest and gunna do it up. i plan on brewing a 10 gallon batch of IPA, splitting it into 2 pots and going to town. i recently met a professional microbrewer who lets the hops "rest" in the hot wort and honestly i prefer my hoppy beers... but i don't want to make the judgement until i try both methods off the same system.

I just thought of a problem... won't dry hopping the piss out of these beers make the results too hard to differentiate? I refuse to not dry-hop 10 gallons of IPA. I think i'll do some other beer style, I make a simple "house ale" that my wife and friends massacre every time. It's lighter, much less intense and will probably be better at exposing the victor.

est. og. 1.048
ibu 18.7

10# pilsner
8# vienna
1# carafoam
1/2# honey malt

split into 2 pots once the wort has been evenly mixed, then the hop additions in each pot are as follows:

.42oz magnum 12.5% @ 60 min
.75oz saphir, spalter, sterling.... I still have to decide what next year's bulk noble purchase is going to be. @ 0 min

Ferment w/ either s-05 or wyeast scottish ale, I'll decide that one later on too.

It'll be ready just in time for winter sipping... lol.

__________________
markg388 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
24 IBU's at flameout??? EuBrew General Techniques 10 09-16-2009 06:59 PM
Flameout additions in hop bag JuanKenobi General Techniques 7 09-16-2009 12:02 AM
Flameout -- Definition? Pelikan General Techniques 6 03-11-2009 08:41 PM
Hops in pot after flameout? MGR72 General Techniques 8 08-25-2008 03:19 PM
Flameout or Dry Hop? skeeordye11 General Techniques 3 12-26-2007 04:05 PM