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Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > General Techniques > How to get the best hop aroma from flameout additions?
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:50 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by VampireSix View Post
I did a hop stand with my last batch (Ruination clone), adding 2oz Centennial at flame out, stirring occasionally while keeping temperature at 190F for 30 mins, then cooling with a wort chiller.

Took a sample one week post pitch (Wyeast London ESB yeast, very fast fermenter), and the hop aroma/taste was fantastic! The aroma was especially surprising, considering I hadn't even dry hopped yet.

A note on the BYO article linked above, talking about the Rock Bottom R&B study... the book For the Love of Hops talks about the same study, and points out that 1 lb of hops (per barrel) was used in each of the four cases. So, 1 lb stand for 50 mins, 1 lb stand for 80 mins, .5 lbs for 80 and .5 lbs for dry hop, and 1 lb for dry hop.
The temperature of the stand has me very curious. Obviously a temp higher than 180 will extract IBUs compared to almost none below. But I wonder what the effects on aroma and flavor are. Flavor and aroma versus stand temperature
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:50 AM   #122
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However, here's my question...Will this effect clarity?
This is a good question.... I pulled a hydrometer sample of my "hop-stood" IPA earlier today, and it seemed especially hazy, even after sitting in the fridge for an hour waiting for yeast to settle... but, then, the thing's only a week and a half old at this point. Anybody wanna chime in about finished beers?

Ultimately, I think it depends on exactly where on the temperature scale the cold break happens. Do the proteins "break" throughout the entire chill, or, does the magic happen in some smaller slice of the range... ideally, a little cooler than 180, so we can hop stand at a sustained temperature and still reap the benefits of a quick chill once we're done?

I brewed on a cold, windy night -- I undershot 180 with my chiller, and went from 175 all the way down to 145 during my 45-minute hop stand -- I presume this would've been horrible for the break. Next time, I'm going to try keeping it at about 180 with my burner for the duration of the stand then rapidly chilling.

Edit to say: the IPA's a bit green, but tasty, with easily-detectable citrus and evergreen hop notes, even flat, not-yet-dry-hopped, and through a stuffy nose.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:35 PM   #123
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Finished beers are clear with this technique. I typically use WLP001 or WLP090, 3-4 weeks in the primary, no cold crash or gelatin. I'm not saying that extra hop oils are not making it into your beer and giving minor haze contributions. But my thought is that other factors are affecting clarity on a much more substantial level. Careful racking, time, patience, and gravity being at the top of the list for having a clear beer.

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The temperature of the stand has me very curious. Obviously a temp higher than 180 will extract IBUs compared to almost none below. But I wonder what the effects on aroma and flavor are. Flavor and aroma versus stand temperature
I do both. Traditional flameout addition from 212-170 F, with a quick chill. Followed by a slow cooling, post-boil 160-60 F hopstand during the course of 20-60 minutes. You will get the best hop character you ever had in an AIPA with a huge focus on flameout, hopstand, and dryhop.
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:01 PM   #124
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I do both. Traditional flameout addition from 212-170 F, with a quick chill. Followed by a slow cooling, post-boil 160-60 F hopstand during the course of 20-60 minutes. You will get the best hop character you ever had in an AIPA with a huge focus on flameout, hopstand, and dryhop.
What ratio do you use? FO_hot - FO_cold - Dry Hop? I'm making an IPA this weekend and I had planned on 1 ounce traditional bittering, 3 oz FO (under 180) and 3 oz DH.
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:09 PM   #125
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Depends on the OG and overall recipe design/desires.

For something fairly intoxicating with a clean grist and dry finish at roughly 1.070 OG at 5.5 gallons:

1- Add the majority of your desired IBUs early
2- Perhaps a supplemental middle addition to round the bitterness and offer a different character (optional)
3- About 2 oz. at flameout + another 2 oz. at warm hopstand (or 4 oz. at warm hopstand with no direct flameout)
4- Dryhop at rate of 0.8 to 1.0 oz. dryhops per gallon of beer

With a direct flameout addition, the wort is above 200 F. If you add hops at this point, they are no longer violently boiling away the delicate hop oils, but they are still extracting IBUs all the way down to about 175 F.

You have the option to bitter slightly less early on and gain more IBUs from a long direct flameout whirlpool... Or, you could bitter as intended early on and simply toss all of your aroma hops in when the wort is about 165 F, all the way down to pitch temps during a slow cool.

The reason I am shying away from 20-5 minute additions altogether has to do with being a chef and realizing more and more that when you add delicate herbs with a ton of aromatic oils during these time frames, you are just boiling away the character and flavor. Best to add them as late as possible for better quality of flavoraroma.

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Old 02-21-2013, 08:13 PM   #126
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I really like your post, Bob. Here's what I'm planning on doing with my next batch (1-gallon IPA):

Cascade- 0.30 oz @ 60 min.
Cascade- 0.10 oz @ flameout
Amarillo- 0.10 oz @ flameout

Cool wort to 170 in an ice bath.
Remove from ice bath and add:

Cascade- 0.30 oz
Amarillo- 0.30 oz

Stir and cover with sanitized kettle lid and let steep for 45 minutes.

After 45 minutes, put back into ice bath and cool down to 70 degrees and pitch my yeast.

After FG is reached, dry hopping with .30 oz Cascade and .30 oz of Amarillo.

What are your thoughts on this schedule?

If you're wondering, I'm using 2 lb 2-Row, .2 lb Vienna, .1 lb Carapils, and .1 lb Crystal 60L.

My SG is 1.061 and my FG is 1.017
Using S-05
Mashing at 150

Thoughts?

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Old 02-21-2013, 08:44 PM   #127
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Jeff, I'm no pro on 1-gallon batches, but here goes...

1- Mash your grain. Do not simply steep it.
2- Reduce the mash time and boil time to 40 minutes each.
3- Start with roughly 1.7 gallons of total wort for the boil (after the mash) depending on your boiloff rate

Shoot for about 60 IBUs.

0.50 oz. Cascade 45 min
0.25 oz. Cascade warm 20 min post-boil hopstand (or 0.15 oz. each at direct flameout and warm hopstand)
0.25 oz. Amarillo warm 20 min post-boil hopstand (or 0.15 oz. each at direct flameout and warm hopstand)
0.50 oz. Cascade 5-7 day dryhop
0.50 oz. Amarillo 5-7 day dryhop

Cool to 60 degrees, oxygenate well, and pitch your yeast.

Your FG should be 1.014, possibly lower if you follow those steps, mash at 150, pitch enough cells of US-05, ferment in the low to mid 60s, raising slightly after the first week and a half to 68 F for the dryhop. I would ferment this in a 1.5 gallon container, to avoid the need for a blowoff tube. Afterward, you can rack to a 1 gallon secondary and add the pellet dryhops.

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Old 02-21-2013, 10:25 PM   #128
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Is there a rule of thumb for the utilization percent of IBUs in a stand at around 190? Makes me wonder if I could get all of my IBUs from the stand if I throw in enough

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Old 02-22-2013, 12:04 AM   #129
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Is there a rule of thumb for the utilization percent of IBUs in a stand at around 190? Makes me wonder if I could get all of my IBUs from the stand if I throw in enough
The short answer to your question is "no." There is no rule of thumb for bitterness calculations for post flameout additions (or even late boil additions that sit around without a quick post flameout temperature reduction).

For beers that receive a large amount of their hop schedule at the end of or after the boil, IBUs are going to be an unhelpful calculation for how bitter the beer is perceived to be. Bitterness comes from isomerized alpha-acids as we all know, and for those who practice heavy 0 minute and hop stand/whirlpool additions can attest to, isomerization of alpha acids occurs post flameout, even though the equations in the software we all use do not factor for it. In addition to iso-alpha acids, bitterness also comes from humulinones and polyphenols, and potentially other hop and non-hop derived compounds in the beer.

I think this is a great aspect of brewing beer. It falls between an art and a science - it's more of a discipline - and there is a lot of room for creative expression based on variations in practices and equipment.
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Old 02-24-2013, 07:49 PM   #130
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Just wanted to let everyone know who may be reading this thread that I HIGHLY recommend this technique. See my post #126 in this thread. I followed exactly this hope schedule and I just pitched my yeast. I tasted the hydrometer sample and it way more of a hop kick then I've ever had on any of my past IPA's. The bitterness was wonderful, and while it was sweet (like wort is) it had an underlying hop bitterness. I can't wait till this ferments down and I dry hop the heck out of it. I really think this technique is something I'll use every time moving forward.

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