Spike Brewing 12.5 Conical Fermenter Giveaway - Enter Now!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > General Techniques > Hopbursting, Hop stand, and bitterness

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10-22-2013, 04:46 PM   #1
chocotaco
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 785
Liked 114 Times on 70 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default Hopbursting, Hop stand, and bitterness

I just got a chance to finally taste my carbed-up coffee IPA. I was trying to get close to Dayman so I targeted around 43 IBU with a huge Cascade/Citra hop burst and a big hop stand of the same at flameout.

The flameout hops were set to "Aroma Steep" so Beersmith didn't calculate any bitterness from them. But man, there is way more than 43 IBU in there. I'm convinced that the flameout hops contributed a fair amount of bitterness during the hop stand. Also I'm convinced that since I didn't do any additions before 20 minutes, the hops that were already in there from the 20 minute addition continued to contribute bitterness during the hop stand even though the heat was off.

Is there any rule for calculating bitterness from flameout hops and continued bittering from late additions during a hop stand? Or any better way to get them in Beersmith in order to get a more accurate calculation? Or maybe I am doing the hop stand wrong?

There is always trial and error, I guess...

__________________
chocotaco is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2013, 09:05 PM   #2
IL1kebeer
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 723
Liked 88 Times on 76 Posts
Likes Given: 7

Default

Hops isomerize at temps below boiling. I forgot what temps but I think they go as low as 140 (I could be wrong on the exact number but you can research it on the web). Isomerization is what adds bitterness so if you are letting the hops steep at near boiling then you are getting bitterness. Keep in mind that the rest of your hop additions are still isomerizing during this time as well so that's probably why it came out extra bitter.

What temp are you steeping at? If you are hopbursting just skip the steep since hopbursting provides a great deal of aroma and flavor as it is. IMO you should chill as fast as possible after flame out to prevent isomerization so that you can "lock in" the flavor and aroma. It you don't chill fast that flavor and aroma will be lost and replaced by bitterness.

__________________
IL1kebeer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-23-2013, 03:52 PM   #3
pjj2ba
Look under the recliner
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
pjj2ba's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: State College, Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,427
Liked 193 Times on 159 Posts
Likes Given: 22

Default

It could be polyphenols from the hops that can contribute to the "perceived" bitterness. They don't add actual IBU's, but it tastes like they did. You can get this during dry hoping as well. The polyphenol levels vary from hop to hop, and unfortunately there is no convenient source for that data that I have seen.

__________________
On Tap: Ger. Pils, OKZ (std Amer. lager), CZ Pils, Maibock,
Kegged and Aging/Lagering:CAP, CAP II, Wheat lager, Imperial Pilsner, Ger. Pils, OKZ (std Amer. lager), OKZ II (for base malt comparison), light beer - yes, light beer, Belgian IPA, IPA,
Secondary:
Primary: Pale Ale
Brewing soon: Saison
Recently kicked : ( IPA, Bock, Saison,
Pilsner Urquell Master Homebrewer
(1st NYC 2011, 2nd NYC 2012)
P U crowns winners in its inaugural master HB competition
pjj2ba is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-23-2013, 09:52 PM   #4
bmick
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 324
Liked 26 Times on 16 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Hops isomerize at temps above 170, but this is very tricky to calculate. I think Mitch Steele's IPA book has some info on it, but you can definitely get significant bittering from hop stands/hop backs if your whirlpool is held above 170 for a long period. A lot of brewers, however, prefer this, and only do small bittering additions early in the boil and then large additions late to achieve their total IBU count.

__________________
bmick is offline
Jayhem Likes This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2013, 06:48 PM   #5
chocotaco
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 785
Liked 114 Times on 70 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

Just wanted to say the new Beersmith update (2.2) has made a start at calculating the bitterness from a hop stand. I would like to see it more involved (like you could enter a temperature/time curve for your hop stand and it would calculate the IBUs you get from it) but it's a start!

__________________
chocotaco is offline
Malty_Dog Likes This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2013, 06:52 PM   #6
Jayhem
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Culpeper, VA
Posts: 2,567
Liked 256 Times on 207 Posts
Likes Given: 1163

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmick View Post
Hops isomerize at temps above 170, but this is very tricky to calculate. I think Mitch Steele's IPA book has some info on it, but you can definitely get significant bittering from hop stands/hop backs if your whirlpool is held above 170 for a long period. A lot of brewers, however, prefer this, and only do small bittering additions early in the boil and then large additions late to achieve their total IBU count.
This is what I do with my APA recipe. I only need 0.6oz of bittering hops for an 11 gallon batch and then the 3oz at 15min and 4oz whirlpool definitely shoot the bitterness up to the targeted 35.
__________________

Next up: American Pale Ale
Primary 1&2: American Brown Ale
Primary 3&4: Hopped up Belgian Tripel
Bottle Conditioning/drinking: Summer Kolsch, White Zombie (Amarillo IPA), English Pale Ale (ESB)

Jayhem is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2013, 09:32 PM   #7
Malty_Dog
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 575
Liked 83 Times on 58 Posts
Likes Given: 126

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chocotaco View Post
Just wanted to say the new Beersmith update (2.2) has made a start at calculating the bitterness from a hop stand. I would like to see it more involved (like you could enter a temperature/time curve for your hop stand and it would calculate the IBUs you get from it) but it's a start!
LOL I logged on a few minutes ago just to say the same thing

They use a 194 deg F as the steep/whirlpool temp from what I can tell. I liked where it put my numbers for my HT clone
__________________

So many recipes...

Fermenter: Dales Pale Ale, Scotch Ale
Bottles: ESB, Bee Cave Bavarian Hef, Nick Danger Porter, Yoop's Hoppy Amber

Malty_Dog is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2013, 09:56 PM   #8
eastoak
Senior Member
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: oakland, california
Posts: 3,209
Liked 147 Times on 139 Posts
Likes Given: 83

Default

the past 8 beers i brewed got not hop additions at all during the 60 minute boil. the first addition is at flame out and they go from there out to 25-30 minutes. 4 of the kegs are gone and were, to me, indistinguishable from any other beer i've brewed in bitterness. the aroma and flavor of the hops, i claim, are more intense. i put a lid on the keggle after each addition. since the hops are never boiled i wonder if the aroma/flavor compounds stay in the beer better? i'm no scientist so i have no idea but it is more intense to my senses.

__________________
eastoak is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2013, 10:06 PM   #9
stevedasleeve
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Betelgeuse
Posts: 875
Liked 36 Times on 33 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

IBU calculations are truly semi flawed models. You really need to trust your taste and work from there. When brewsmith calculates 90 Tinseth IBUs and 57 Rager IBUs... You can't go with either! Brew enough and the bitterness you perceive will be a guide. IMHO.

__________________
stevedasleeve is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-28-2013, 02:08 AM   #10
Calder
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 5,432
Liked 243 Times on 216 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chocotaco View Post
Just wanted to say the new Beersmith update (2.2) has made a start at calculating the bitterness from a hop stand. I would like to see it more involved (like you could enter a temperature/time curve for your hop stand and it would calculate the IBUs you get from it) but it's a start!
When someone actually figures out what the IBU addition is, then I guess they will add it. I don't know that anyone really knows the effect. I would even guess (I don't know) that the BeerSmith numbers are only an estimate, and not based on empirical data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevedasleeve View Post
IBU calculations are truly semi flawed models. You really need to trust your taste and work from there. When brewsmith calculates 90 Tinseth IBUs and 57 Rager IBUs... You can't go with either! Brew enough and the bitterness you perceive will be a guide. IMHO.
The Rager, Tinseth, and Garetz models are the only ones that are currently available, and are the best that we have. They are all based on data, but I guess the amount of data is limited. I generally switch between Rager and Tinseth, depending on whether I am bittering early or hop bursting; I find Tinseth greatly over-estimates the IBUs from late hops.

You need to find what seems to work for you and use that.
__________________
Calder is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Extra bitterness from a hop stand ArcLight General Techniques 1 07-06-2013 05:55 AM
Hopbursting and bitterness beertroll General Techniques 6 06-27-2013 01:22 AM
Hopbursting brewt00l Recipes/Ingredients 29 10-27-2011 07:22 PM
FWH and hopbursting DIPA kzoobrew Recipes/Ingredients 2 08-25-2010 12:52 AM
Hopbursting.... Dude General Techniques 12 12-09-2005 02:44 AM