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bctdi 09-05-2010 05:47 PM

Hopback like techniques without actually using a hopback
 
I`m not completely satisfied with my hop utilization, and I`ve made about 12 batches so far.I have an IC and don`t want to upgrade to a cfc or march pump.I just wanted to see if anyone has any techniques to get that same effect as using a hopback without actually having one....any good alternates out there?I had an idea since I already use a paint mixer / drill to aerate which seems to work pretty well for cooling as well....I could attach / tie a long, narrow paint strainer full of hops to the top and bottom of the paint mixer shaft so that it would twist itself around the shaft during rotation.In theory the wort would be forced through the hop sack just like a hopback during the cooling period of the wort.I really don`t know if this would work well or not....maybe it`s been tried before.I`m just trying to understand what it is about the hopback that makes it work so well.Is it the temp reduction of the wort as it goes through the hops?Anyway with a good understanding of what makes the hopback work well , maybe someone can come up with a different technique or tool for those of us without pumps or cfc`s.:mug:

RCCOLA 09-05-2010 07:20 PM

I've just taken to changing how I add hops to my hoppy beers. I now add less than 1/2 the IBUs at 60mins. and make up the rest from 15-0 mins. and then cover the kettle at flameout with the lid and a towel and steep for ~ 15 mins b4 cooling.

My last 5gal batch of APA had 5 ozs. of hops from 15-0 mins. and 1oz. dry and was amazing.

bctdi 09-06-2010 12:03 AM

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:
Quote:

Originally Posted by RCCOLA (Post 2258665)
I've just taken to changing how I add hops to my hoppy beers. I now add less than 1/2 the IBUs at 60mins. and make up the rest from 15-0 mins. and then cover the kettle at flameout with the lid and a towel and steep for ~ 15 mins b4 cooling.

My last 5gal batch of APA had 5 ozs. of hops from 15-0 mins. and 1oz. dry and was amazing.

Ok , I cant really whirlpool too well because of the bazooka screen that came with my kettle, but I never really thought of giving extra time for steeping without the whirlpool... This could help.... I used 6 oz of hops between late additions and dry hopping on my last apa and the beer had no real noticable hop aroma whatsoever and very little hop flavor...I just felt like you know... What the hell does a guy have to do to get some real results.

RCCOLA 09-06-2010 12:31 AM

If you aren't using old hops then maybe you need some sulphate in your water. With that many late hops and no aroma/flavor, your water may be the culprit. post your water profile if you have it. If not...

I would recc. 1tsp. of gypsum and 3/4 tsp. of calcium chloride. If that doesn't add hoppiness, then I'm a monkeys anus. Those additions will put you a little short of a London bitter profile with a little more sulphate-84 (I have used up to 200). I'm assuming your water has some calcium and sulphate in it so I'm being conservative and these additions won't make it harsh if you have a little calcium and sulphate.

bctdi 09-06-2010 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCCOLA (Post 2259020)
If you aren't using old hops then maybe you need some sulphate in your water. With that many late hops and no aroma/flavor, your water may be the culprit. post your water profile if you have it. If not...

I would recc. 1tsp. of gypsum and 3/4 tsp. of calcium chloride. If that doesn't add hoppiness, then I'm a monkeys anus. Those additions will put you a little short of a London bitter profile with a little more sulphate-84 (I have used up to 200). I'm assuming your water has some calcium and sulphate in it so I'm being conservative and these additions won't make it harsh if you have a little calcium and sulphate.

I have really soft water ....all minerals are single digit ppm per ward labs.Do you think my hop utilization can be held down that much due to my water?I have played with water additions , but only for darker beers to raise the ra a little ,but having a hard time figuring out the chloride to sulfate ratio to bring hop flavor to the forefront.I tried a Janet`s brown recipe with a bitter chloride / sulfate ratio and it came out really bitter....almost salty.Since then I have tried to leave the water additions out of my lighter beers hoping to bring in more hops to make up for the soft water, but it doesn`t seem to be working as well as other folks seem to be experiencing.Next beer with lots of hops I think I will try what you suggested and add some gypsum and a little calcium chloride to the boil and see what happens.It`s really hard to have the discipline to not just try throwing load of hops in there to fix it for the next beer and instead adjust my water, but I`m going to do it.:mug:

bctdi 09-06-2010 07:17 AM

here`s my water profile BTW

pH 7.9
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est 71
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.12
Cations / Anions, me/L 1.0 / 0.8
ppm
Sodium, Na 9
Potassium, K 2
Calcium, Ca 9
Magnesium, Mg 2
Total Hardness, CaCO3 31
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.5 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 4
Chloride, Cl 9
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 16
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 13
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit
Bus: 308-234-2418 4007 Cherry Ave., P.O. Box 788
Reviewed By

RCCOLA 09-06-2010 08:08 AM

I just did a profile using your minerals. I would add
Baking Soda NaHCO3 1.5 grams add 0.34 tsp(pale beer) If for amber beer bump this up to 2 grams
Gypsum CaSO4 2.5 grams add 0.63 tsp
Calcium Chloride CaCl2 2.5 grams add 0.74 tsp
Epsom Salt MgSO4 2 grams
I break my additions up into mash/boil additions by multiplying the total by .8 & adding the smaller amt to the boil. Keeps the boil pH in line.
Here's the one I was talking about with H2O additions.

Salt Total Mash/Boil Calcium Chloride 2.5 grams mash / 0.5 grams boil, Gypsum 1.75/ 0.35, Epsom 3.25/ 0.65, Soda 1.75 / 0.35

81% 10 0 Pilsner (2 Row) Ger info 37 2
8% 1 0 Munich Malt - 10L info 35 10
4% 0 8 Wheat, Flaked info 35 1
4% 0 8 Crystal 60L info 34 60
3% 0 6 Caravienne Malt info

boil 60 mins 0.5 Magnum info pellet 11.6
boil 15 mins 1.5 Cascade info pellet 4.5
boil 10 mins 1.0 Amarillo info leaf 7.0
boil 1 min 1.0 Cascade info pellet 4.5
boil 1 min 1.0 Chinook info pellet 13.0
dry hop 7 days 1.0 Amarillo info leaf 7.0

bctdi 09-06-2010 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCCOLA (Post 2259419)
I just did a profile using your minerals. I would add
Baking Soda NaHCO3 1.5 grams add 0.34 tsp(pale beer) If for amber beer bump this up to 2 grams
Gypsum CaSO4 2.5 grams add 0.63 tsp
Calcium Chloride CaCl2 2.5 grams add 0.74 tsp
Epsom Salt MgSO4 2 grams
I break my additions up into mash/boil additions by multiplying the total by .8 & adding the smaller amt to the boil. Keeps the boil pH in line.
Here's the one I was talking about with H2O additions.

Salt Total Mash/Boil Calcium Chloride 2.5 grams mash / 0.5 grams boil, Gypsum 1.75/ 0.35, Epsom 3.25/ 0.65, Soda 1.75 / 0.35

81% 10 0 Pilsner (2 Row) Ger info 37 2
8% 1 0 Munich Malt - 10L info 35 10
4% 0 8 Wheat, Flaked info 35 1
4% 0 8 Crystal 60L info 34 60
3% 0 6 Caravienne Malt info

boil 60 mins 0.5 Magnum info pellet 11.6
boil 15 mins 1.5 Cascade info pellet 4.5
boil 10 mins 1.0 Amarillo info leaf 7.0
boil 1 min 1.0 Cascade info pellet 4.5
boil 1 min 1.0 Chinook info pellet 13.0
dry hop 7 days 1.0 Amarillo info leaf 7.0


On my next IPA I planned on using a lot of late addition hops....I used the ez water calculator spread sheet and I came up with the following for the recipe:

Amount Item Type % or IBU
12 lbs 4.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 85.96 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 7.02 %
1 lbs Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 7.02 %
2.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops -
2.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (60 min) Hops 52.6 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (10 min) Hops 4.5 IBU
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (5 min) Hops 8.8 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (0 min) Hops -
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (0 min) Hops -
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1.00 items wort chiller (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1.10 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
4.00 gm Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
5.00 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) [Starter 2 qt] Yeast-Ale



Do you think the baking soda and the epsom salt will help the flavor profile , or is that strictly for residual alkalinity and keeping the mash ph in check?The last time I added epsom salt and baking soda to my mash, the hops really came through, but in a very bitter harsh way....of course that was the first time brewing that recipe and I`m not sure if it was due to recipe and not water additions.I know that palmer says a little magnesium and calcium is good for fermentation / yeast health so I can see why the epsom salt may be necessary....man water is tricky.


Ok I went back and read what I put in my Janet`s brown recipe....and I think I added way too much salt or something...here it is :

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 0 / 0
CaSO4: 1 / 1.16
CaCl2: 3.5 / 4.04
MgSO4: 2.5 / 2.89
NaHCO3: 5 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0


I plugged in your recipe to ez water calculator and it seems much more reasonable....and I am going to use it on my next ipa.I now think that the reason that beer came out so harsh was because of my water additions to it.So it seems I`ve done both extremes 1st ...no water additions to soft water which results in very little hop flavor/aroma....then 2nd I went way overboard on my Janet`s brown recipe which contributed to a harsh / bitter hop flavor.Lets see what happens with a decent water build.

RCCOLA 09-06-2010 06:37 PM

NaHCO3: 5 / 0
There's your salty flavor right there. The epsom and soda are for the RA & sulphate/chloride ratio.

bctdi 09-06-2010 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCCOLA (Post 2259886)
NaHCO3: 5 / 0
There's your salty flavor right there. The epsom and soda are for the RA & sulphate/chloride ratio.

Yep , that's got to be it. It's a shame it took me this long to find out why my hops aren't coming through well.... and I'm kind of a hophead.... I was getting a little frustrated.I thought water additions would make a slight difference but I never thought it would change that much.... I guess it makes sense though since my water is pretty close to RO.


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