Hop stand

Calichusetts said:

I don't use a secondary anymore but looking back...I did have better results dry hopping in the secondary.

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Do you cold crash before adding the dry hop hops?

I've done pre-dry hop cold crashes, I've done post. And this is for both methods (primary only and secondary)

Lately I haven't even been cold crashing.

I've read this thread and a few others on the topic of hop-stands, as well as the two BYO articles that have been cited (the hop-stand article, and the one on Stone brewing where it is mentioned that they use a 75-90 minute, 200 degree whirlpool). I've thought about using a hop-stand to get more hop flavor into my IPAs, but a question occurs to me that nobody has raised: If more flavor is what you're after, why not just add more late hops?

Simply adding more late hops seems to have three advantages: 1) No DMS concerns; 2) No need to fudge or guess at IBU calculations; and 3) Avoids extending the brew day by 30 minutes or more. The only cost is a few more bucks for some extra hops.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for process improvements that result in better beer or get me closer to replicating a craft brew that I love. But an easier answer to the question of "How do I get more hop flavor?" seems to me to be, "Add more hops".

Am I missing something here?

Beerthoven said:

Am I missing something here?

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Some hop oils are more volatile than others and don't survive temperatures above 170 degrees (more or less), but do last through fermentation. There are some aroma and flavor compounds that can't be had with boil hops or dry hops. That's the theory anyway.

AnOldUR said:

Some hop oils are more volatile than others and don't survive temperatures above 170 degrees (more or less), but do last through fermentation. There are some aroma and flavor compounds that can't be had with boil hops or dry hops. That's the theory anyway.

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I really like the results from a hop stand - Your explanation is probably the reason. No DMS so far, and the bitterness seems pretty close to what I expected. It's worth it to me - YMMV.

Just finished reading through the whole thread and man do I have a different approach that I wanna take for the next few batches.
Since all I wanna brew is anything from a APA -- IPA & anything perfectly HOP'd, this was 100% sub material.

Can anyone recommend any other threads like this.

So I brewed an IPA with a hop stand that included 3 ounces at flameout that I just kept the temp at about 180 and stirred every few minutes for about 30 minutes total. Three months after brewing it still smells like a fresh IPA. This is a great technique.

wyobrewer1 said:

So I brewed an IPA with a hop stand that included 3 ounces at flameout that I just kept the temp at about 180 and stirred every few minutes for about 30 minutes total. Three months after brewing it still smells like a fresh IPA. This is a great technique.

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That's something that I don't remember hearing before. It's a real advantage if it keeps a good fresh hop flavor and aroma for several months.

I just read through most of this thread this morning, found a lot of the DMS discussion really interesting, especially considering the beer I just made.

24# pale malt
1# c20
1# c40
1# flaked barley
2# cane sugar

90 min mash at 148-149, no mash out. Efficiency near 80% with a 75 min sparge.

2oz Buzz Bullets FWH (8.5%)
1oz Bravo (14.1%) 60
2oz BB 20
2oz BB 10
2oz BB 5
4oz BB Hopstand
4oz BB Dry hop (10 days)

OG was 1.080 and calculated IBU assuming 10% efficiency on the hopstand addition is about 105. I copied the base recipe from Ruination and decided to use the whole pound of buzz bullets I just bought. Pitched big S-05 slurry and ended up oxygenating twice, once at filling the fermenters and once again the next day.

My boil was about 110 minutes, collected 14g boiled down to 11.5.

For my hop stand...I recirculated using a pump and a whirlpool setup for, wait for it, 2 hours, held at 170F with my electric setup. I waited until 195 to add the hopstand addition and then just let the beer cool as it recirc'd to 170. Covered the pot, as my last two hop stands I did not and the idea struck me finally that I was losing a lot of volatiles. I have a good false bottom and just let the hops free float in there, was able to recirculate at a pretty good rate due to that. Beer came to 1.080 roughly and is fermenting away now. I'll report back here with results. If DMS is a potential issue with covered, extended hop stands, it's going to show up in this. Hopefully not, but it's for like science, right?

Brettomomyces said:

My boil was about 110 minutes, collected 14g boiled down to 11.5.

If DMS is a potential issue with covered, extended hop stands, it's going to show up in this. Hopefully not, but it's for like science, right?

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Not really...the precursor of DMS is halved every 40 minutes of a boil...so you have removed more than 75% of the SMM. You really shouldn't see it.

Calichusetts said:

Not really...the precursor of DMS is halved every 40 minutes of a boil...so you have removed more than 75% of the SMM. You really shouldn't see it.

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Right, that's what I'm thinking as well. I'm not personally worried, just thinking this could be a good example because it's on the extreme end and I have not seen anyone else go that long with a heated, covered stand.

Edit - I did read through that beer smith article that goes into a lot of detail, just the section on cooling confused me at first, because it mentions forming an increased 30% of DMS per hour while hot. So basically, I've taken the DMS level down to 20% or so during the boil, and then that is being increased to 23% the first hour and then 26% the second?

I tend to do 75-90 minute boils for my beers. I have been playing with hopstands as its the current fad and 90 minute hopstands produce no detectable dms for me. I think dms from cooling the wort too slowly is one of those things like hsa that homebrewers over concern themselves with.

WTF is a hop stand? Is it a piece of equipment?

PackerfaninSanDiego said:

WTF is a hop stand? Is it a piece of equipment?

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The search feature here is wonderful, you know. Or even start at the first post in this thread.

did and did, did not answer my question

Wow.

OK, I just Googled it and the first thing that came up for me answered your question.

PackerfaninSanDiego said:

did and did, did not answer my question

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A hop stand is a technique used by brewers to impart greater hop flavor and aroma in their beer by adding hops after boiling is complete and holding temps in the 190f-175f range allowing for some isomerization as well. Hop stands typically last 30-60min.

I believe the term is derived from the fact that the brewer allows the wort to "stand" at a temp below boiling but above pitching temps while the hops steep.

I did a Pliney Elder today with hops @ 90, 45, 30 and flameout. How would a hop stand work with this recipe?

PackerfaninSanDiego said:

I did a Pliney Elder today with hops @ 90, 45, 30 and flameout. How would a hop stand work with this recipe?

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I'd say you'd add you flameout hops and allow temp to drop to about 180f then hold it there for 30 min. Once that's done continue cooling to pitching temps.

You do get some additional extraction so you'd have to figure that in if you're worried about getting the IBUs just right.

PackerfaninSanDiego said:

I did a Pliney Elder today with hops @ 90, 45, 30 and flameout. How would a hop stand work with this recipe?

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Another name for it is a whirlpool addition. Some of the previous posts stated it well. Basically you pull a lot of the hop oils out, but since it isn't a rolling boil you keep a lot of the aroma and flavor in the wort. It's a great technique and I use it in all of my hoppy beers. Kill the heat, add your flameout addition and keep it above 180 for 30 minutes, stirring every 5 minutes or so.

so if one was to not want a hoppy beer, this is not a good thing to do?

PackerfaninSanDiego said:

so if one was to not want a hoppy beer, this is not a good thing to do?

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No, bad idea. It's a flavor technique. Works like a charm if that's what you want.

PackerfaninSanDiego said:

so if one was to not want a hoppy beer, this is not a good thing to do?

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Maybe not, but you're talking about Pliney The Elder, so it's a pretty good thing to do.