Have I been batch sparging wrong?

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storytyme said:
My LHBS crushes the grains. How to I address it with them with out sounding like a jerk?
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I double crush grains for my customers all the time to try to help their efficiency. I've done it for a few personal batches myself, and have noticed that double crushed grains are more prone to getting the dreaded stuck sparge (note, I fly sparge, so that might make a difference). Add some rice hulls if you are going to go that route. Also, your sparge should be 170*F to denature the enzymes in your mash and start rinsing the sugars off of your grains. Good luck! :mug: :mug:
 
RmikeVT said:
They keep a wide gap to A) Prevent people from getting stuck mashes, B) Sell more grain and C) Sell more grain.
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That is complete BS and totally asinine. Believe it or not, there isn't much money to make in grain, and regardless of the crush the poundage sold is exactly the same. I keep the mill at my shop real tight to give my customers the best crush possible. Giving customers a bad crush is a great way to go out of business. Maybe your LHBS guys are swindlers, but in my experience guys who run shops are pretty down to earth and aren't out to screw their customers. Thanks for playing though.

As for buying a grain mill, you are completely right. It is the best way to dial in your crush and keep it consistent, plus it allows you to buy grain by the sack and save a bunch of money.
 
How would they be selling more grain by crushing it once or twice? 100 pounds of feathers weigh as much as 100 pounds of gold. My point is we buy it by the pound.
 
I batch sparge, and generally try to do a mash-out before I drain my first runnings- what this looks like-

Stir a couple times through the mash
Drain about 2-3 quarts (I use a decoction calculator)
Boil that "decoction" (liquid only)
Put it back in to raise all mash to 170- stir again,
Vorlouf
Drain First Runnings

Add 180 degree sparge water to keep mash near 170

This worked to bring my efficiency up to 73% from 66% using a cooler and copper manifold.
 
I haven't tried decoction mashing but I thought you were supposed to remove a portion of the grains, with the wort cook at higher temp then return it to the mash tun several times at different temps to create certain flavors. Not sure it has anything to do with efficiency
 
ericrichards420 said:
I haven't tried decoction mashing but I thought you were supposed to remove a portion of the grains, with the wort cook at higher temp then return it to the mash tun several times at different temps to create certain flavors. Not sure it has anything to do with efficiency
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What I described isn't a decoction mash- this is my standard batch sparge-
I've found that by getting my mash (not sparge) up to 170 BEFORE I take my first runnings, my efficiency and my consistency went up. It's no different than adding boiling water, except I take out wort and add it back in at a higher temp to bring the mash temp up- it's easier for my ratios and the like-
 
It's my belief that the key to good efficiency in batch sparging lies in two things: having a fine enough crush, and stirring very vigorously before each drain. The latter is where I think many people could see massive improvement and perhaps don't realize how important it is, or what I mean by vigorously. Stir it like it just kicked your puppy. Then stir it harder. Do it for at least 5 of the 10 mins you might have used letting it settle before draining.

Doing this lets me get very good and repeatable efficiency without tricks like slow drains, mashouts, decoction, step mashes, multiple sparge additions, extra grain, etc. It lets me do my 20 min single infusion, single cold water sparge addition with a fully wide open drain without letting it rest before draining.

I realize I can be fairly vocal about this stuff sometimes, I'm actually super low key in real life. I also know there's a million ways to do things, and that's fine by me. I just want people to see that there may be a different approach that could get them to where they want that they might also consider easier. I am thrilled with both the simplicity of my brewdays and the quality of the rewards. I'll pipe down now.
 
sudbuddy said:
That is complete BS and totally asinine. Believe it or not, there isn't much money to make in grain, and regardless of the crush the poundage sold is exactly the same. I keep the mill at my shop real tight to give my customers the best crush possible. Giving customers a bad crush is a great way to go out of business. Maybe your LHBS guys are swindlers, but in my experience guys who run shops are pretty down to earth and aren't out to screw their customers. Thanks for playing though.

As for buying a grain mill, you are completely right. It is the best way to dial in your crush and keep it consistent, plus it allows you to buy grain by the sack and save a bunch of money.
Click to expand...

I think you are being a little defensive as a HBS owner here. I happen to love my 3 local home brew stores, their philosophies and integrity. It sounds like you fit into the same boat. And I never accused anyone of doing anything unethical. Your comment comes off as a little rude, as well.

This is not BS and it is not an asinine comment. You are incorrect. You say, "regardless of the crush the poundage sold is the same." This is simply not true. The crush has a direct correlation to mash efficiency. Here is some simple math to support my statement.

1.060 Beer needs 60 gravity points per gallon
6 gallon Final Volume needs 60pts * 6 gallons = 360 gravity points
Let's say your average 2-row has an extract potential of 36 points per pound per gallon

at 100% Efficiency you need 10lbs of grain
at $2/lb retail = $20; At $0.84/lb bulk = $8.40

at 80% Efficiency you need 12.5lbs of grain
at $2/lb retail = $25; At $0.84/lb bulk = $10.50

at 70% Efficiency you need 14.3lbs of grain
at $2/lb retail = $28.60; At $0.84/lb bulk = $12.01

at 60% Efficiency you need 16.6lbs of grain
at $2/lb retail = $33.20 ; At $0.84/lb bulk = $13.94

To make a 1.060 beer, the difference in grain needed going from 80% to 60% is $8.20 at $2/lb or 25% increase in base malt cost for the consumer.

Anyone who understands the basics of brewing and mashing knows that lower efficiency cost more money (or increases cash flow for the seller). You say "I keep my mill real tight, to give them the best crush possible." Do you condition their malt for them? If you were truly operating in the customers' 100% best interests you would be conditioning the malt for them with water and crushing it for them and everyone who shops at your store would be getting 85%-90% efficiency. I doubt you do this. Why don't you do this? Well, operationally it is probably a little prohibitive and costly. And what do you have to gain for this additional expense? Nothing, you actually decrease your margins by increasing costs and decreasing volume sold. I bet you could find a way to do this and still turn a profit, though. But you don't. And I don't expect you to, I'm just making a point.

My LHBS mills grain, and most that get their grain milled there get around 70% efficiency. Other stores people get around 65% efficiency. This is all acceptable, but they don't tighten up their mills because they A) Probably don't want their customers experiencing stuck sparges from too tight of a crush and individual equipment limitations and B) Don't want to go through the extra time consuming process of narrowing the gap and conditional malt because they will SELL LESS GRAIN and it is probably cost more to sell.

I mean c'mon, why did your response have to be so rude. Maybe you disagree with me saying a business wants to make more money when they can, thats fine. But to say my statement is BS and asinine is simply off base, which I proved through simple math, and most who understand mashing basics don't require the explanation.
 
ericrichards420 said:
How would they be selling more grain by crushing it once or twice? 100 pounds of feathers weigh as much as 100 pounds of gold. My point is we buy it by the pound.
Click to expand...

You need less grain to make the same beer if you run it through twice do to the increase in extraction efficiency. You probably reduce your grain bill and cost by 10%-15%.
 
On a lighter note, after your mash has rested for the given time, and before you drain it, do you stir it like crazy again? Or is the stirring only when you add the grains at the initial mash in and when you add sparge water? Just wondering.
 
A quick question for all who have contributed to this discussion, or those you have not. When we are talking about efficiency is everyone talking about brewhouse efficiency or mash efficiency? This just occurred to me and made me curious.
 
storytyme said:
On a lighter note, after your mash has rested for the given time, and before you drain it, do you stir it like crazy again? Or is the stirring only when you add the grains at the initial mash in and when you add sparge water? Just wondering.
Click to expand...

Yes, stir like a mad man before opening the drain each time.

I can't comment on what differences or not you'd notice if you recirculate throughout the mash because I have never used a recirc rig. I'd guess there would still be benefits to stirring since the grain isn't being agitated much during that process. Maybe it depends on the specifics of the configuration too. Is there generally enough water to submerge the grain, ie do you do any sparge addition? Is there any channeling during recirc? All of this is probably answered elsewhere, so I'll stop now.
 
I actually stirred so much when I mashed in (7 min) that my temp went from 167 to 148 with 12.5 lbs of grain! I stumbled around to try and raise it up, but ended up letting it rest for 90 min instead of 60. Next time maybe 5 min will do.
 
You want to be sure you don't have doughballs when you mash in, but yeah the stirring I'm talking about happens right before collecting runnings each time.
 
storytyme said:
A quick question for all who have contributed to this discussion, or those you have not. When we are talking about efficiency is everyone talking about brewhouse efficiency or mash efficiency? This just occurred to me and made me curious.
Click to expand...

Thoughts?
 
RmikeVT said:
I think you are being a little defensive as a HBS owner here. I happen to love my 3 local home brew stores, their philosophies and integrity. It sounds like you fit into the same boat. And I never accused anyone of doing anything unethical. Your comment comes off as a little rude, as well.

This is not BS and it is not an asinine comment. You are incorrect. You say, "regardless of the crush the poundage sold is the same." This is simply not true. The crush has a direct correlation to mash efficiency. Here is some simple math to support my statement.

1.060 Beer needs 60 gravity points per gallon
6 gallon Final Volume needs 60pts * 6 gallons = 360 gravity points
Let's say your average 2-row has an extract potential of 36 points per pound per gallon

at 100% Efficiency you need 10lbs of grain
at $2/lb retail = $20; At $0.84/lb bulk = $8.40

at 80% Efficiency you need 12.5lbs of grain
at $2/lb retail = $25; At $0.84/lb bulk = $10.50

at 70% Efficiency you need 14.3lbs of grain
at $2/lb retail = $28.60; At $0.84/lb bulk = $12.01

at 60% Efficiency you need 16.6lbs of grain
at $2/lb retail = $33.20 ; At $0.84/lb bulk = $13.94

To make a 1.060 beer, the difference in grain needed going from 80% to 60% is $8.20 at $2/lb or 25% increase in base malt cost for the consumer.

Anyone who understands the basics of brewing and mashing knows that lower efficiency cost more money (or increases cash flow for the seller). You say "I keep my mill real tight, to give them the best crush possible." Do you condition their malt for them? If you were truly operating in the customers' 100% best interests you would be conditioning the malt for them with water and crushing it for them and everyone who shops at your store would be getting 85%-90% efficiency. I doubt you do this. Why don't you do this? Well, operationally it is probably a little prohibitive and costly. And what do you have to gain for this additional expense? Nothing, you actually decrease your margins by increasing costs and decreasing volume sold. I bet you could find a way to do this and still turn a profit, though. But you don't. And I don't expect you to, I'm just making a point.

My LHBS mills grain, and most that get their grain milled there get around 70% efficiency. Other stores people get around 65% efficiency. This is all acceptable, but they don't tighten up their mills because they A) Probably don't want their customers experiencing stuck sparges from too tight of a crush and individual equipment limitations and B) Don't want to go through the extra time consuming process of narrowing the gap and conditional malt because they will SELL LESS GRAIN and it is probably cost more to sell.

I mean c'mon, why did your response have to be so rude. Maybe you disagree with me saying a business wants to make more money when they can, thats fine. But to say my statement is BS and asinine is simply off base, which I proved through simple math, and most who understand mashing basics don't require the explanation.
Click to expand...

Sorry if I came off as rude, that was certainly not my intention, I was just calling like I saw it. Go back and look at what your original post said, and how you phrased it. THAT was rude, and asinine. BS? That might have been too far, so I apologize.
As far as the math goes, the guy who posted after me and said that a pound of feathers weighs as much as a pound of bricks had it right. You were talking about homebrew shops setting mills loosely intentionally to sell more grain. This insinuates that your LHBS is out to screw you, which we most certainly are not. Of course you will get a better crush with your mill. Of course conditioning will give you better efficiency. I'm not disputing that at all, but don't say we are just out to sell you more grain.
Speaking of conditioning. I agree it would be awesome if we could condition grain before milling, but the biggest issue that comes to mind is giving someone a bag of damp grain that they might not be brewing with that day. Then it will get all moldy and nasty and make a gross kind of kettle soured beer. Otherwise I think it would be a really cool idea.

Sorry if I came off too defensively in my earlier post, or this one for that matter. I like to look out for the little guys in this world of Northern Brewers and Midwest Brew Supplies. Also sorry to everyone else for getting off topic, I just couldn't let that one slide. Now I'm gonna go RDWHAHB

:mug: :mug:
 
storytyme said:
A quick question for all who have contributed to this discussion, or those you have not. When we are talking about efficiency is everyone talking about brewhouse efficiency or mash efficiency? This just occurred to me and made me curious.
Click to expand...

Since an increase in mash efficiency, with all other variables unchanged, will equal an increase in brewhouse efficiency, I think the distinction isn't all that critically important.

That said, I believe most folks here are talking about mash efficiency.
 
jbaysurfer said:
Since an increase in mash efficiency, with all other variables unchanged, will equal an increase in brewhouse efficiency, I think the distinction isn't all that critically important.

That said, I believe most folks here are talking about mash efficiency.
Click to expand...

Great. Thanks.
 
masonsjax said:
It's my belief that the key to good efficiency in batch sparging lies in two things: having a fine enough crush, and stirring very vigorously before each drain. The latter is where I think many people could see massive improvement and perhaps don't realize how important it is, or what I mean by vigorously. Stir it like it just kicked your puppy. Then stir it harder. Do it for at least 5 of the 10 mins you might have used letting it settle before draining.

Doing this lets me get very good and repeatable efficiency without tricks like slow drains, mashouts, decoction, step mashes, multiple sparge additions, extra grain, etc. It lets me do my 20 min single infusion, single cold water sparge addition with a fully wide open drain without letting it rest before draining.

I realize I can be fairly vocal about this stuff sometimes, I'm actually super low key in real life. I also know there's a million ways to do things, and that's fine by me. I just want people to see that there may be a different approach that could get them to where they want that they might also consider easier. I am thrilled with both the simplicity of my brewdays and the quality of the rewards. I'll pipe down now.
Click to expand...

This is extremely interesting. I might have to try this. Unfortunately I won't be able to gain much info since I just bought a mill for myself so my next brew will have multiple new variables anyway.

So do you use different mash water ratio or do you usually stick to one (like 1.25 qt/lb or something). I usually use 1.50 qt/lb because for me (with my 0.15 gal/lb absorption) that gives me about the same amount of mash water and sparge water, but with a 20 minute mash this number might be more important.

This has been an awesome thread to read through.
 
piggybacking off the OP's question. When I select a single infusion, full body, batch sparge profile in Beersmith it has me batch sparge in two steps. So....

1) initial mash in at 168*, hold temp at 156* for an hour
2) Drain wort
3) Batch sparge in two steps, add 1.5gal and 3gal at 168*

My question is in relation to #3, do I:

A) add the 1.5 gal sparge water, stir and drain, then add the 3 gal, stir, drain and begin boil
B) add the 1.5 gal sparge water, stir and then add remaining 3 gal(4.5 total gal in the mash tun), stir, before draining entire mash tun

I've been doing process A for my past couple of brews, however that 1.5 gal number seems awfully low when rinsing 7lbs of grain. Is process B going to have too high of a water/grain ratio and extract tannins?

Trying to improve my process while raising my efficiency in the meantime.
 
MeanDeuce said:
piggybacking off the OP's question. When I select a single infusion, full body, batch sparge profile in Beersmith it has me batch sparge in two steps. So....

1) initial mash in at 168*, hold temp at 156* for an hour
2) Drain wort
3) Batch sparge in two steps, add 1.5gal and 3gal at 168*

My question is in relation to #3, do I:

A) add the 1.5 gal sparge water, stir and drain, then add the 3 gal, stir, drain and begin boil
B) add the 1.5 gal sparge water, stir and then add remaining 3 gal(4.5 total gal in the mash tun), stir, before draining entire mash tun

I've been doing process A for my past couple of brews, however that 1.5 gal number seems awfully low when rinsing 7lbs of grain. Is process B going to have too high of a water/grain ratio and extract tannins?

Trying to improve my process while raising my efficiency in the meantime.
Click to expand...

Not sure why BeerSmith would recommend different sparge water amounts for each step. Kai (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparging_Analysis has shown that equal size sparge water additions lead to the highest efficiency. I would recommend 2.25 gal for each sparge step.

You want option A. Be sure to drain as much wort at each step (including initial run-off) as you can in order to maximize efficiency.

Water to grain ratio is not what causes tannin extraction. Tannins are extracted when you have high mash temps (over 170°F) and high mash pH (over 6, IIRC.)

Brew on :mug:
 
doug293cz said:
Not sure why BeerSmith would recommend different sparge water amounts for each step. Kai (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparging_Analysis has shown that equal size sparge water additions lead to the highest efficiency. I would recommend 2.25 gal for each sparge step.

You want option A. Be sure to drain as much wort at each step (including initial run-off) as you can in order to maximize efficiency.

Water to grain ratio is not what causes tannin extraction. Tannins are extracted when you have high mash temps (over 170°F) and high mash pH (over 6, IIRC.)

Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...

BS has a little box to can check to sparge with equal amounts. It's on the mash profile page for whichever batch sparge profile you choose.

Edit: in practice, these amounts are only estimates. Drain your mash tun then measure your volume. Subtract that from your boil size to figure out how much sparge water you need, divide that by the number of batches you intend to do.

IE, my typical 5G batch has 7.5G boil size and I get 2.5G of first runnings. I sparge with 2 batches, 5G/2=2.5G of sparge water per batch.

Like my 3rd edit LOL!: For deuces question, I'd just sparge with 2.25G per batch...so long as it was enough water to cover the grainbed. If it's not, I'd sparge with the entire 4.5G although from experience with 5G batches and a 10G mash tun, that's going to be a very full mash tun if you do it in a single sparge. 2.25 is usually enough water to fully immerse my grainbed...depending on the size of the grainbill obviously.
 
MeanDeuce said:
I wonder if Beersmith did that to take into account the 10 gal mash tun.

Regardless, thanks guys, just needed the sanity check.:mug:
Click to expand...

No, like I said. Go to the mash page, click on the little profile icon next to the mash profile title, and click the box that says: Use equal Batch Sizes. And it'll do it for you. If you have "batch sparge using batches that fill (this is a fill in field, I think it defaults to 90%) of mash tun. You'll sometimes get an odd batch size as a 3rd step. I just divide it by two and increase the first two steps by that amount. It's hard to describe with text. If I could show ya I would. LOL..
 
MeanDeuce said:
All those were checked.

I fixed it but the recipe steps didn't update. It's ok. I got what I need to do for the brew. Thanks again
Click to expand...

No worries. Sometimes when that happens I leave the page and come back again and it updates. Should work. Good luck to ya. Like I said, those are just suggestions anyway, all you need to know is how much mash water to use, and your boil size and after draining your mashtun you can figure the rest on the fly. :mug:
 
MeanDeuce said:
All those were checked.

I fixed it but the recipe steps didn't update. It's ok. I got what I need to do for the brew. Thanks again
Click to expand...

Re-selecting the equipment profile from within the recipe might fix it - I found I had to do this this when dialing in my brew kettle boil off rate.
 
RmikeVT said:
You need less grain to make the same beer if you run it through twice do to the increase in extraction efficiency. You probably reduce your grain bill and cost by 10%-15%.
Click to expand...

I'm really lucky I guess. Bell's charges us like a buck for a pound of base malt, and even the specialty malts are like a buck thirty. There's a huge mill in the grain room you can use that does a nice medium crush, and you can just double crush if you are looking for more.
 
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about efficiency. Yours isn't that low. Your technique seems fine, the water temp is right, just mix well, allow it to settle and then vorlauf and drain.

What's important is consistency. If you get a consistent efficiency and are nailing your gravities then your doing well.
 

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