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Old 09-16-2012, 06:43 PM   #81
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The other thing I learned that I was wondering about, is that I've heard it mentioned that table sugar must be boiled to ferment properly. Bollocks.

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Old 09-16-2012, 07:35 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by bottlebomber
Results are in.

Lol.

Both samples have dropped clear for a good day now. The gravity of the straight sugar went from 1.028 down to .998. The caramelized version started at 1.028, and when fermentation was complete it came down to... Wait for it...

1.020. Maybe 1.018.

So I can definitely conclude(read concede) that caramelized table sugar is SIGNIFICANTLY less fermentable. I am actually really glad I did this, because I had planned on priming the beer with caramelized sugar, and now I know to not do this. The degree of fermentability is far to unpredictable. Cool experiment.
Definitely cool. About the fermentability I had expected from moderate-to-well caramelized sucrose. Just under 19% attenuation.

You should now do the same with 1.028 lactose solutions, making sure that the caramelized lactose is at least as well-caramelized as the sucrose was.

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The other thing I learned that I was wondering about, is that I've heard it mentioned that table sugar must be boiled to ferment properly. Bollocks.
It's technically easier. I suppose it might even be true for some mutant strains.

Yeast is not typically able to ferment sucrose directly. It must enzymatically cleave it into glucose and fructose, and then ferments those monosaccharides. Boiling it first (especially, but not necessarily, with some sort of acid) helps "invert" it (ie it creates what's called "invert sugar") which is essentially the same thing - splitting the disaccharide sucrose into glucose and fructose.

So the claim might have SOME basis in reality, though it's pretty safe to assume you don't need to. But boiling sucrose before adding it is always a good practice (from a sanitation standpoint), and it IS technically easier for the yeast to ferment the invert sugar.

Now that I think of it, it may even be possible for boiled sugar to allow a bottle to carb more quickly than sucrose. I actually doubt the difference would be noticeable - and I certainly don't think the sucrose would make it lag even a single day behind - but it could be an interesting experiment
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Old 09-16-2012, 08:36 PM   #83
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Also, you can still use it for priming. You have to make a large amount, well-mixed. Then you'd have to test the batch's fermentability like you did here.

To find the required mass of the caramelized sucrose needed, just multiply the mass of sucrose you need (Ms) by the fermentability of sucrose (Fs = 100%), divided by the real attenuation of the caramelized sample (Fc).

The following describes the equality of mass times fermentability:
Mc * Fc = Ms * Fs

And you can figure out what you need by rearranging it to what I described in words in the second paragraph.
Mc = Ms * Fs / Fc

In this case:
Mc = Ms * 100 / 18.77
Mc = Ms * 5.33

In other words, you'd take the mass of sucrose you would use to get the carbonation you want, and multiply it by 5.33 to get the mass of the caramelized sugar you'd need. If there's water involved, then you would need to calculate the volume of priming solution needed, and the SG of it. Then you either make a caramel solution that has the same SG, but use 5.33 times the volume, or one that has the same volume, but 5.33 times the gravity points.

Hopefully I didn't make it sound too complicated, because it's not. This would be a great way to maximize the caramel flavor without thinning out the beer (or increasing ABV) more than you would have with a standard priming solution anyways, and it would be a shame to miss out on that just because it involves a bit of math. If it seems too complicated, I'd be happy to do the math if you could give me the OG and FG of the fermentability test for the particular batch of caramel you intend to use.

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Old 09-16-2012, 10:27 PM   #84
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The equation seems solid. I would definitely want to repeat the experiment at least once more before I stake an expensive batch of beer on it. If I could do it two more times and get very similar results I'd feel comfortable carbing a batch this way. Even a difference of 10% attenuation would make me feel a little leery though. As you mentioned before, there's a broad range in caramelization.

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Old 09-17-2012, 01:11 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bottlebomber
The equation seems solid. I would definitely want to repeat the experiment at least once more before I stake an expensive batch of beer on it. If I could do it two more times and get very similar results I'd feel comfortable carbing a batch this way. Even a difference of 10% attenuation would make me feel a little leery though. As you mentioned before, there's a broad range in caramelization.
Yeah, that's why I said you'd have to test the attenuation of the same batch of caramelized sugar that you plan on using to prime.
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Old 09-17-2012, 01:14 AM   #86
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Gotcha

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Old 09-18-2012, 01:41 AM   #87
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I'd just like to add that this thread has progressed quite nicely and I am very happy to have see your results, bottlebomber. Also, the discourse is excellent.

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Old 09-18-2012, 02:11 AM   #88
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I'd just like to add that this thread has progressed quite nicely and I am very happy to have see your results, bottlebomber. Also, the discourse is excellent.
Thanks! I've still got 2 more experiments to do with the lactose now, but I'd like to use the thread to document other things I do with the caramelizing efforts, until I hone some good applications or decide it isn't worth the effort.
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:33 PM   #89
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Old thread bump.

Any chance your final beer ended up with some caramelized milk flavors? I'm curious about what kind of flavors you got with the caramelized lactose in the final beer.

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Old 01-16-2013, 11:07 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seabass07
Old thread bump.

Any chance your final beer ended up with some caramelized milk flavors? I'm curious about what kind of flavors you got with the caramelized lactose in the final beer.
Yes, absolutely they did. I am going to experiment with this process again soon to see how much lactose I can get away with using before I get an overly heavy beer. I used 12 oz for the creme brûlée stout, and the FG was 1.025 but not even close to being overly sweet. I think depending on the recipe you could use 1-1.5 lbs. the FG will be quite high, but it doesn't taste sweet. I'm going to try this method in a caramel amber ale to see what I'm dealing with. The flavor came through in the stout but the recipe I developed had a terrific amount of roasted grain.
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